Expo Update

[Tuscani01]

Originally Posted by 12x

Your numbers are false. No debate needed.

And your comment is false until you can back it up. Until then, his word stands.

[Taller, Better]

What do you know that we don't, 12x?

[kelw]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

If it is so impossible to do this successfully, then why was it so good for Barcelona? Why was it good for Vancouver, when they had only a minor Expo (transportation). What happened to that "Think Big" credo everyone had about a month or two ago? When the city does think big half the people shoot it down. I think this would not only be amazing for the infrastructure of the city at Harborfront, it makes Toronto more well known internationally. This is important not only for international investment, but for future tourism. Maybe it is more than crunching numbers on a piece of paper and tossing the paper into the waste basket if it appears we don't make a profit.

Unfortunately, the "Think Big" people seem to be a minority in Toronto (not this forum, but the whole city). Everyone complains, but nobody wants to spend money as long as things are "good enough". The city still has very much of a change-adverse culture that stops the city from moving forward. Every sign of progress, be it a new condo, an airport bridge or a skyscraper is faced with an anti-development sentiment.

The only time when the "Big Ideas" are mentioned is during an election. But those are meaningless words that the candidates never plan to act on.

[Taller, Better]

To me this seems like such a win-win project.. I admit I am surprised at the amount of opposition to it on these forums.

[phunky]

Originally Posted by kelw

Unfortunately, the "Think Big" people seem to be a minority in Toronto (not this forum, but the whole city). Everyone complains, but nobody wants to spend money as long as things are "good enough". The city still has very much of a change-adverse culture that stops the city from moving forward. Every sign of progress, be it a new condo, an airport bridge or a skyscraper is faced with an anti-development sentiment.

The only time when the "Big Ideas" are mentioned is during an election. But those are meaningless words that the candidates never plan to act on.

i couldn't agree with you more. very well said.

[Canadian Chocho]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

To me this seems like such a win-win project.. I admit I am surprised at the amount of opposition to it on these forums.

So am I.

[hkskyline]

Having the government guarantee fiscal overruns is a very risky and dangerous condition. Would you care about spending if someone is going to pick up your tab?

The logical thing to do is to share the deficit among the responsible parties, rather than finding the richest level of government and shoving the overruns to them. No wonder there are no takers.

[12x]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

What do you know that we don't, 12x?

lol - drop the defensiveness already. Obviously some in here have trouble dealing with differing opinions. Epecially when its about someones adopted hometown.

I used to think fluffers were synonymous with the porn industry, this board has proven that wrong. you know -- "thats brillianty fantastic" types.

Anyways... its a waste of money and while the school board is forced to cut 10's of millions from the budget again the fluffers are hard work trying to throw a party. It's all fun and games until someone gets shot by a high school dropout...

So to answer your, achem, question. Alot.

[Urban Idiot]

Oct. 26, 2006. 01:00 AM

Toronto's world party is almost over before it even began.

Local hopes of welcoming visitors from around the globe to Expo 2015 are on the verge of being dashed because of short-sighted wrangling between Ottawa and Queen's Park over sharing some of the costs of building and operating the world's fair.

While it remains possible to save Toronto's Expo bid, the reality is that the deadline is next Friday and there is no time left to waste.

The fair could still happen in 2015 with some compromise and accommodation on the part of the provincial and federal governments.

For that to happen, Mayor David Miller will need to show decisive leadership. Officials from all three levels of government are to meet soon on the issue in a last-ditch effort to find a solution.

Much is riding on this bid.

Hosting a successful world's fair could change the face of Toronto, spark action on the near-dormant waterfront redevelopment, and be a boon to the rest of Canada by generating jobs and new tax revenues.

If Queen's Park and Ottawa jump on board, Toronto's chances of winning the Expo bid are exceptional. So far, only one candidate is in the running: the Turkish city of Izmir.

But an official bid may not happen because Ottawa and Queen's Park insist on passing the deficit buck.

The trouble erupted when Queen's Park announced it won't cover an uncapped deficit for the fair. That would amount to issuing a "blank cheque," according to Ontario Tourism Minister Jim Bradley. The province wants the federal government to pay, but Ottawa argues that a 1995 policy forbids it from covering such deficits. Meanwhile, Toronto lacks the cash to fund this project.

That has created an impasse, with just days remaining to sort it out.

Expo backers are frustrated because a world's fair could prove a financial winner for Ontario.

Councillor Brian Ashton, leader of the city's Expo effort, estimated that infrastructure costs to prepare a site in Toronto's derelict portlands, would likely require $800 million from Queen's Park. And the deficit is expected to be about $400 million. That would leave the province with a total cost of about $1.2 billion.

But Ontario stands to earn $2 billion in tax revenue, Ashton says. Provincial officials dispute those numbers and worry that the total Expo deficit could easily top $2 billion if revenues fail to match expectations.

The 1967 Expo held in Montreal, considered one of the most successful world's fairs ever, had a deficit at the time of $210 million.

Ottawa and Queen's Park need to find a way around the impasse. One avenue would be for the federal government to boost its spending on security and other Expo-related costs, freeing the province to assume more responsibility for the deficit.

If that fails, Queen's Park should agree to take on the Expo deficit, just as British Columbia has stepped up to guarantee the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver and Whistler.

It would be the fair thing to do. Not only would Ontario gain higher revenues from the sales tax and income taxes generated through Expo 2015, but it would benefit from the strengthening of Toronto, the province's economic engine.

This city stands ready to welcome the world, but it cannot do it alone because the costs are simply too much to bear on its own.

And it cannot do it while Queen's Park and Ottawa are turning their backs on Toronto. These upper levels of government need to give Toronto a clear show of support now, before next Friday's deadline.


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[12x]

Originally Posted by Tuscani01

And your comment is false until you can back it up. Until then, his word stands.

There's a sucker born every minute.

If it could turn a profit, private industry would go it alone. The deal wouldn't be dieing if the financials were sound.... Common sense seems to be in short supply around here.

Originally Posted by rbt

12x have you actually taken a look at the financing for the Expo?

The provincial and federal goverments should both receive a net profit in the billions.

I can see you have done significant research on this topic, including read the proposal and related financial and risk documents. Worst case economic gains and indirect taxation revenue are quite clearly beneficial to senior governments if they fund the Expo.

------------------------------------------------
Ashton said Toronto isn't the only one that would benefit from the exposition, pointing out that it's projected to generate $5.3 billion in revenue, mostly for the provincial and federal governments.

Ashton said the deficit, if there is one, is predicted to be between $400 million and $500 million and wouldn't affect the province's budget until 2016.
But other people have estimated that it could run up to $700 million.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/sto...dfair-bid.html
-------------------------------------------------

There will be no deficit but they have figured how much of a deficit there will be? LOL give your heads a shake.
Those loss figures are a best case scenario.

-----------------------------------------------------
In an 11th-hour compromise, trustees approved a budget that will eliminate an $85 million deficit but does not include any school closings or cuts to in-school staff. However, 29 education assistants will be lost through attrition.

Toronto board balances budget
------------------------------------------------=

[Taller, Better]

Originally Posted by 12x

lol - drop the defensiveness already. Obviously some in here have trouble dealing with differing opinions. Epecially when its about someones adopted hometown.

I used to think fluffers were synonymous with the porn industry, this board has proven that wrong. you know -- "thats brillianty fantastic" types.

Anyways... its a waste of money and while the school board is forced to cut 10's of millions from the budget again the fluffers are hard work trying to throw a party. It's all fun and games until someone gets shot by a high school dropout...

So to answer your, achem, question. Alot.

My statement was not defensive, 12X, after asking you earlier to explain your point of view (to no avail) I was genuinely waiting patiently to hear if you actually knew something that I had not heard about the lack of viability of this project. Apparently you do not. No surprise there. Just your idea that as long as the school board needs money, everything else in the city must grind to a halt.
"Obviously some in here have trouble dealing with differing opinions".
Not surprisingly, I could say the same about you, 12x. You have a low opinion of Toronto, and of anyone who does not share your beliefs. But, being a "Fluffer", I am going to try and find something "positive" to say: You and I have something in common!!! We are both happy you chose to move away from Toronto!!!

[12x]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

My statement was not defensive, 12X, after asking you earlier to explain your point of view (to no avail) I was genuinely waiting patiently to hear if you actually knew something that I had not heard about the lack of viability of this project. Apparently you do not. No surprise there. Just your idea that as long as the school board needs money, everything else in the city must grind to a halt.

Adressed over and over again, whether you choose to accept it or not. well... thats your issue.

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

" negativity about Toronto. Being a "Fluffer", I am going to try and find something "positive" to say: You and I have something in common! We are both happy you chose to move away from Toronto!

Politics don't tend to be fluffy topics and some opportunities are just too good to pass up, c'est la vie. Home is always home and 2 yrs won't change that .

I hope you enjoy your time in the greatest city on the planet. I do empathise because you didn't have the chance to experience growing up and learning in it and thus being moulded by it. The way you carry yourself and your lack of understanding of what makes Toronto Toronto and a torontonian a torontonian exemplifies that.

Where are you from BTW?

[Taller, Better]

Originally Posted by 12x

Adressed over and over again, whether you choose to accept it or not. well... thats your issue.


Politics don't tend to be fluffy topics and some opportunities are just too good to pass up, c'est la vie. Home is always home and 2 yrs won't change that .

I hope you enjoy your time in the greatest city on the planet. I do empathise because you didn't have the oppurtunity to experience growing up and learning in it. The way you carry yourself, the assumptions you make, and your lack of understanding of what makes Toronto Toronto exemplifies that.

Where are you from BTW?

I think it is safe to say we share an equally dim view of each other, 12x. I have established what your **ahem** "logic" and "special insider's knowledge" was regarding Expo, and that was what I set out to do! I'm happy you chose to move to Montreal, and hope you find happiness there some day! Oh... but I recall you whingeing and complaining about that city, too... so I'll just give you a general "Bonne chance"!
Being such a slavish devotee to the Toronto threads, I am surprised you don't know I moved here from Winnipeg 21 years ago.

[12x]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

I think it is safe to say we share an equally dim view of each other, 12x. I have established what your **ahem** "logic" and "special insider's knowledge" was regarding Expo, and that was what I set out to do! I'm happy you chose to move to Montreal, and hope you find happiness there some day! Oh... but I recall you whingeing and complaining about that city, too... so I'll just give you a general "Bonne chance"!
Being such a slavish devotee to the Toronto threads, I am surprised you don't know I moved here from Winnipeg 21 years ago.

lol... I don't tend to keep tabs of people on forums slavish devotees do.

RBT stated our federal and provincial governements were going to rack up BILLIONS IN PROFIT. A completely absurd claim. Tuscani and yourself backed that claim up.


------------------------------------------------
Ashton said Toronto isn't the only one that would benefit from the exposition, pointing out that it's projected to generate $5.3 billion in revenue, mostly for the provincial and federal governments.

Ashton said the deficit, if there is one, is predicted to be between $400 million and $500 million and wouldn't affect the province's budget until 2016.
But other people have estimated that it could run up to $700 million.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/sto...dfair-bid.html
-------------------------------------------------

Anything else?

[InTheBeach]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

Being such a slavish devotee to the Toronto threads, I am surprised you don't know I moved here from Winnipeg 21 years ago.

You forgot to mention your six pack. Don't be so modest.

[Tuscani01]

Originally Posted by 12x

lol... I don't tend to keep tabs of people on forums slavish devotees do.

RBT stated our federal and provincial governements were going to rack up BILLIONS IN PROFIT. A completely absurd claim. Tuscani and yourself backed that claim up.


------------------------------------------------
Ashton said Toronto isn't the only one that would benefit from the exposition, pointing out that it's projected to generate $5.3 billion in revenue, mostly for the provincial and federal governments.

Ashton said the deficit, if there is one, is predicted to be between $400 million and $500 million and wouldn't affect the province's budget until 2016.
But other people have estimated that it could run up to $700 million.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/sto...dfair-bid.html
-------------------------------------------------

Anything else?

And you failed to disprove that claim.

[rbt]

Originally Posted by Tuscani01

And your comment is false until you can back it up. Until then, his word stands.

It's not my word. It's right in the documentation put together by the civil servants and reviewed by the various business boards in Toronto which was introduced publicly well over a year ago.

All I did was read them and remember the big picture stuff. Pretty straight forward really. Expo directly costs $X and has revenue of $X - $Y, but indirect revenue (economic boost) of $Z. $Z has a fairly large timeframe attached to it, but is also much larger than $Y + interest.


Nearly every public project (highways, public transit, water, sewer, health care, education, law enforcement, etc.) works the same way. Big long term indirect payout with a comparatively small short term loss.

[12x]

Originally Posted by rbt

All I did was read them and remember the big picture stuff. Pretty straight forward really. Expo directly costs $X and has revenue of $X - $Y, but indirect revenue (economic boost) of $Z. $Z has a fairly large timeframe attached to it, but is also much larger than $Y + interest.


Nearly every public project (highways, public transit, water, sewer, health care, education, law enforcement, etc.) works the same way. Big long term indirect payout with a comparatively small short term loss.

The Expo is not a public works project and therefore NONE of what would normally be taken into account when calculating financial spinoff from a public works projects applies to it.

[Taller, Better]

Originally Posted by InTheBeach

You forgot to mention your six pack. Don't be so modest.

ahhhhhh..... godda love them six packs!


[QUOTE=12x;10244993]lol... I don't tend to keep tabs of people on forums slavish devotees do. QUOTE]

I don't need to keep tabs.... I have a shockingly good memory when I choose to!

[12x]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

I don't need to keep tabs.... I have a shockingly good memory when I choose to!

more of a selective and biased one formed by assumption ..