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Old July 23rd, 2012, 10:09 PM   #341
danchun
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http://www.cnta.gov.cn/html/2012-7/2...-30-04937.html

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Old July 24th, 2012, 04:57 AM   #342
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Is this for the first half of 2012?
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Old July 24th, 2012, 06:34 AM   #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by everywhere View Post
Is this for the first half of 2012?
Jan-May
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Old July 24th, 2012, 06:50 AM   #344
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but in China,Domestic tourism is much more than inbound tourism.

in 2011,there were about 4 million foreign tourists coming to Yunnan,there were 0.16 billion domestic tourists(from other provines) coming to Yunnan.


http://yn.yunnan.cn/html/2012-02/04/content_2027161.htm
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Old July 24th, 2012, 08:59 PM   #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geography View Post
Yunnan province is the second poorest per capita of all Chinese provinces. Its GDP is ranked 24 out of all 31 provinces. A province that poor is not going to have many Americans, Canadians, Brits, and other native English speakers to either teach English or practice English with. Poor English skills will sink a city and airport's ability to attract foreign tourists and businesses.
I'm really speechless about the above comments. Not sure if you can read Chinese but a few other members have posted stats that shows Yunnan has the 7th largest foreign population in China, it also ranked sixth in terms of foreign (exclude HK or Taiwan) tourists reception.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 09:46 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by danchun View Post
but in China,Domestic tourism is much more than inbound tourism.

in 2011,there were about 4 million foreign tourists coming to Yunnan,there were 0.16 billion domestic tourists(from other provines) coming to Yunnan.


http://yn.yunnan.cn/html/2012-02/04/content_2027161.htm
160 million local tourists visited Yunnan last year?

Not surprised by the developments...
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Old July 25th, 2012, 07:11 PM   #347
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Not sure if you can read Chinese but a few other members have posted stats that shows Yunnan has the 7th largest foreign population in China, it also ranked sixth in terms of foreign (exclude HK or Taiwan) tourists reception.
Please post them because I'm skeptical. But I'm not just talking about any foreigners, I'm talking about Europeans or native English speakers who can teach English or who will be conversing primarily in English. Laotian migrant workers may count toward a province's foreign population but it doesn't help the province's English ability.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 07:48 PM   #348
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Geography, are you trying to write some absurdist novel? But you're the same guy who botched economic theory, so I guess it's expected.

You claim that Yunnan is too poor to attract foreigners, but when presented with statistics indicating otherwise, you asserted that the foreigners were even poorer Laotian migrants. Um, okay. Check the numbers of Laotian guest workers in Yunnan. Since the desperately poor migrants in general do not go through official channels and work under the table, they generally aren't counted in official census stats. And since much wealthier Guangdong is just a bus ride away, wouldn't it make sense for the desperately poor "foreigners" to seek their fortune there?

It'd actually help if you visited the place, or just listened to people with actual first hand knowledge. Instead you rely on your initial suppositions/prejudices/quick glance at Wikipedia and then continually argue your initial flawed point.

Yunnan is one of the poorer provinces. But it's a tourist mecca because of its very unique geography, its extremely mild highland subtropical climate, and because of its cultural minorities. Even the official income statistics are misleading. Income stats are misleading because it is still primarily rural and the cost of living is low.

Then you harp on the English teacher thing. People go abroad to teach English because it's a job, not because they're bringing enlightenment.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 02:05 AM   #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geography View Post
Please post them because I'm skeptical. But I'm not just talking about any foreigners, I'm talking about Europeans or native English speakers who can teach English or who will be conversing primarily in English. Laotian migrant workers may count toward a province's foreign population but it doesn't help the province's English ability.
Please broaden your horizon.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 06:56 PM   #350
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This link from the Kunming Tourist Administration says overseas tourists to Kunming in the first half of 2011 were 0.4377 million. This link from the same agency for what appears to be the first eight months of 2011 or 2012 says overseas tourists were 0.6179 million. Using those numbers, you can extrapolate 2011 foreign tourist arrivals at no more than 1 million in Kunming. Are there three million other foreign tourists visiting Yunnan but not Kunming? If so, that suggests they are coming across the border from Myanmar, Laos, and Vietnam, not flying in through Kunming.

These numbers are after annual growth of 15-20%, indicating that the high number of foreign tourists is a recent phenomena, not a long-standing fact.

Like any professional, English teachers are generally going to go where the salaries are highest. When English teachers are young foreigners, they are going to gravitate toward big cities with an exciting lifestyle. That puts Kunming and Yunnan at a disadvantage vis-a-vis Beijing, Shanghai, Nanjing, Qingdao, Dalian, Wuhan, and Guangzhou.

Moreover, most international businesses in China are headquartered in the above cities, not Kunming or Yunnan. Fewer international businesses mean fewer opportunities to practice English. You have to acknowledge that the general English ability of Kunming residents is going to be several notches below that of Beijing and Shanghai residents.

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Income stats are misleading because it is still primarily rural and the cost of living is low.
If the province is primarily rural, then that absolutely supports my assessment of Yunnan as a poor province. Farmers in China and Southeast Asia are very poor and it's a hard life. That's why young people are leaving the countryside in droves. Moreover, farmers have fewer opportunities for education, especially English education.

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Geography, are you trying to write some absurdist novel? But you're the same guy who botched economic theory, so I guess it's expected.
particlez, what economic theory are you referring to?
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Old July 26th, 2012, 07:10 PM   #351
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Kunming is not very rich,but not poor,Kunming is a very morden city.Kunming has everything other cities have.
Kunming also has very nice whether,not cold and not hot,very comfortable city.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 07:20 PM   #352
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2011 Kunming has 40 million domestic tourists.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 07:34 PM   #353
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I have no idea about the those second stats, nor do I care. Simply put, regardless of the statistics cited, Yunnan is a big tourist draw. Dali, Xishuangbanna, Stone forests, etc.

You really should cool it about the value of certain English-speaking tourists and English teachers. You shouldn't cite them as harbingers of enlightenment. Plenty of hard-partying English-speaking tourists in Laos too, with your logic, they'd be 1) bringing enlightenment, 2) in some wealthy area. Sadly, and I've seen it first hand, it's not the case. Rudyard Kipling would approve of your mindset. Most others see you as a clueless chauvinist.

You were one (in a number) of critics in the China HSR thread who went on about the need to maximize the yields Thatcher/Reagan style, even though it was a public service and a monopoly. That already puts you into the realm of inadvertent comedy.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 08:17 PM   #354
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I have no idea about the those second stats, nor do I care. Simply put, regardless of the statistics cited, Yunnan is a big tourist draw. Dali, Xishuangbanna, Stone forests, etc.
Ho ho, now who's the blissfully ignorant one? You were just attacking me for ignoring statistics, yet you proudly do it yourself!

You're putting words in my mouth regarding English teachers, I never said they were bringing "enlightenment". You used that word, not me. English is the international language of business, science, and tourism and knowing it can increase the earning power of a Chinese citizen immensely. Strong English skills are essential to providing good service at an international airport hub like this new Kunming airport. The new airport aims to be a hub for Southeast Asia, meaning some travelers will merely be passing through, not staying in China, and thus have no Chinese language skills at all. But if they're an international traveler they will probably know some English which is why English is so important in aviation.

Surely you agree that learning English is important for the career of any ambitious Chinese citizen? Surely you agree that English is even more important for anyone considering a career in tourism, aviation, international business, or science. It's OK to agree with me, it won't make you an English chauvinist.

To learn good verbal English, you need some native English speakers, especially in Asia. Korean, Japanese, and Chinese English pronunciation is notoriously poor if trained entirely by non-native English speakers because English pronunciation and intonation is so radically different from Asian languages. Again, this isn't about establishing which language is best, it's simply the reality. Parents pay higher fees for their children to learn from a native English speaker than a non-native English speaker. Universities and language centers pay foreign teachers much higher wages than Chinese teachers because the foreign teachers add more value to their English language programs. That's not my opinion, that's the verdict of the market for English language education across the world. If you think native speaking English teachers provide no extra value beyond non-native speakers, then you are welcome to send your children to cheaper language schools with no foreign teachers.

I'm not suggesting all Chinese English teachers are inferior, and there is a lot more to teaching than having good pronunciation. There will also be a large demand for non-native English speakers. Non-native speakers can teach reading, writing, grammar, and vocabulary very well. But to really learn good English, students should practice with a native speaker. A lack of foreigners to practice English with handicaps a city's English speaking ability and further handicaps their ability to develop economically. Can you agree with that?
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Old July 26th, 2012, 09:12 PM   #355
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Wow, writing so much crap, for nothing. You've never been to a place, immediately cite it as unworthy of visits, then when presented with stats that contradicted your initial assertion, you lumped those tourists as unworthy themselves.

I said the stats weren't important because both sets of stats showed that the place drew more than its fair share of tourists, and certainly drew more tourists than its relatively low income levels would attract (your logic, not mine).

Now, have you ever been to Laos? Ever been to Yunnan? Why do you make blanket assertions over places with which you are not familiar? Ever see the appeal of any place outside of its income level? The fact that you're on an urban planning forum and continually harp on the sanctity of English teachers says something about your mindset. Then you had the whole butchering of economic theory. Sadly you don't realize just how wrong you are.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 09:34 PM   #356
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You've never been to a place, immediately cite it as unworthy of visits, then when presented with stats that contradicted your initial assertion, you lumped those tourists as unworthy themselves.
You have a real talent for making things up and putting them in others' mouths. I never said Yunnan or Kunming is unworthy of visits, how could you think that?

I originally said that because Kunming is not yet a major international business hub or tourism destination, the English skills of its residents are likely to be inferior to that of residents of Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Singapore, and other major aviation hubs. International tourist numbers matter because their existence provides a monetary reason for learning English and a way to practice English. However, if those international tourists are day-trippers from Myanmar, Thailand, Laos, and Vietnam, then those tourists probably won't help improve Kunming and Yunnan's English abilities.

I never said tourists were "unworthy", whatever you mean by that. Certain nationalities of tourists are more likely to speak English than others. Can you agree with that? Korean, Japanese, Indian, American, Canadian and European tourists are more likely to speak English than domestic Chinese or Southeast Asians. Certain nationalities of tourists are more useful in improving verbal English skills than other nationalities. I don't think I'm making any radical claims here, it all seems pretty self-evident.

This whole discussion started over my estimation that the English skills of Kunming airport staff was likely to be inferior to that of other major aviation hubs. particlez apparently took that estimation as blasphemy and is determined to convince the world that Yunnan is a preemiment tourist destination with English speaking residents par excellence.
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Old July 27th, 2012, 06:21 AM   #357
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Actually there are a lot of foreigners are going to Kunming to learn Mandarin and because Kunming is the capital of Yunnan that owns the biggest number of minority of nationalities, the research of their culture is a big attraction of Kunming as well.

I'm living in the US now, and I have learned that what is the difference between freedom of speeches and facts. Kunming attracts way more foreigners to visit, study and live than many other provincial capitals and its unique features together with the opening of the new airport will definitely enrich its charm.
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Old July 28th, 2012, 07:08 AM   #358
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Actually there are a lot of foreigners are going to Kunming to learn Mandarin and because Kunming is the capital of Yunnan that owns the biggest number of minority of nationalities, the research of their culture is a big attraction of Kunming as well.
Very interesting...

Seems that Kunming has a sizable foreign community like other mainland cities...
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Old July 28th, 2012, 07:19 PM   #359
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Kunming has many differences from other mainland cities. It has not only big foreign communities, but also a lot of minority nationalities other than Han people.
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Old July 30th, 2012, 07:58 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by Geography View Post
Please post them because I'm skeptical. But I'm not just talking about any foreigners, I'm talking about Europeans or native English speakers who can teach English or who will be conversing primarily in English. Laotian migrant workers may count toward a province's foreign population but it doesn't help the province's English ability.
The chart above my post shows from Jan to May 2012 Yunan received 1.22 million foreign visitors. Kunming only counts towards one portion of the Yunnan travel market, as the more famous places such as Dali or Lijiang are far from Kunming, in fact when I visited Yunan I didn't even bother with Kunming. Also if funny that you mentioned Laotian migrant workers, have you ever been to China? I've never heard of Southeastern Asian migrant workers in China, not to say they don't exist, but the number must be extremely small. I would say the vast majority of the visitors come from English speaking or other European countries. Go to the traditional Naxi nation town of Lijiang and you'll see that it's hard to find a store that doesn't have someone who can speak English. I'd say most Chinese colleges (anywhere) and most high schools in major cities have native English speakers as foreign language teacher, Yunnan University's English program started in 1942 and remains one of the strongest in the nation, the separate College of Tourism's foreign language department alone has 11 foreign teachers.
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