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Old April 4th, 2009, 05:23 PM   #841
Langur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by particlez View Post
it's relevant to the discussion because art deco was a very practical and thus ubiquitous building style. if new york and chicago did not have their later construction booms, their stock of art deco would be much larger.
I was saying that whether we call it art deco or not is irrelevent so long as we all understand what we're referring to. Obviously the amount of art deco that has been preserved is of relevance to this debate, but that was not the point I was quoting and responding to.
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furthermore, the destruction in shanghai DOES pale in comparison to chicago and new york. in the immediate postwar era, no one saw art deco as worthy of preservation, and the historical preservation movement did not gain any traction until the later parts of the 1960s, when much of the art deco stock had already been dismantled. thus... you can save your smilies for another thread.
When I said that Shanghai has made up for lost time in recent years I really meant it. The scale of recent destruction/construction in Shanghai is as great as that in New York or Chicago since 1949. If you do not believe me then go to Shanghai and see for yourself. The scale and speed of recent development there dwarves that of any Western city in a comparable timeframe. They have effectively compressed six decades of Western-speed urban development into one, and this development has involved a comparable amount of destruction. Shanghai's attitude towards its architectural heritage is also somewhat ambivalent. On the one hand they recognise the architectural value of that inheritance, but on the other they associate it with a period of humiliation at the hand of foreign powers. As in New York and Chicago in the 60s, they will doubtless preserve the best of it, but a great volume of it has, and will doubtless continue, to fall under the wrecking ball.
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uh... yeah. now you're verging into BS mode.
Well if you cannot appreciate the difference in style and feel between the low-rise pastel coloured art deco of Miami's South Beach, and the infinitely more urban buildings that pepper the cityscape of New York or Shanghai, then that's your inadequacy.

Last edited by Langur; April 4th, 2009 at 05:42 PM.
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Old April 4th, 2009, 05:38 PM   #842
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Originally Posted by the spliff fairy View Post
Langur, decide whether youre arguing about the number of art deco buildings, or the quality, or the 'impact'.

I am arguing numbers here. My stand is that Shanghai, thanks to 50 years of stagnation still has:

1. the more prominent art deco its famous for, and that can be seen in its larger buildings such as dept stores and multistorey offices

2. but backed up by the myriad smaller buildings and residential streets (in much larger numbers extant than elsewhere in the world)

3. and also the large amount of 'disguised' blocks (details covered up by washing lines, extensions, neon etc.).
I think New York, at least, probably has more in absolute numbers. I mean just look at aerials of Manhattan to see what I mean! However I'm really arguing for impact which is given roughly by the formula: quantity x value. I have tried to explain this already so forgive me if I copy and paste:

"Given that none of us has a database as to the total number of art deco buildings in every city, and the lack of any objective way to balance the number of buildings against their average size/impact, then all we have to go on is impression. In which city does art deco architecture have the most impact? In my opinion the art deco makes a greater impact in New York and Chicago. I think Black Cat is right to mention that art deco landmarks spread right through Manhattan from the Downtown tip, a vast bulk through Midtown, all of those landmark apartment blocks lining Central Park (especially the Upper West Side), and way up into Harlem. And that's not to mention all the art deco in the outer boroughs. I also think Chicago's art deco has more impact. In the centre there seem to be massive art deco commercial buildings looming over every street and around every corner. You'll also stumble across little gems such as an art deco diner or an original curved wooden bar (such places did not survive the communist era in Shanghai). The only places where I get that feel in Shanghai are in the central historic areas aforementioned, and even there it's confined to certain pockets rather than extending right through as in Chicago or New York."

and....

"my main point is simply that Chicago and New York's art deco makes a greater overall impression on the visitor. The size of the art deco "architectural feast" is given by the formula: quantity x value, and when I say "value", I mean architectural value"
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Originally Posted by the spliff fairy View Post
If you think about it, almost anything that isn't highrise in the centre was built in the 1920s and 30s when the International Treaty port flowered. If you look at the original Old City area, that predated the era, its a fraction of the rest of the centre. WWII followed by Civil War, then the communist takeover kept the city in limbo right until the opening up of the economy in the 1980s.
I don't agree with this. Not all of the old buildings in the centre are art deco. Most of the old buildings in the Bund area, Nanjing Lu, etc, are some form of neo-classical. Shikumen housing is not really art deco either. And there was some communist era construction. There are certainly large swathes of shabby mass housing that appears to have been constructed before the recent boom. And you cannot ignore the diminution in the stock resulting from the boom itself, which has been on a gigantic scale for the last 15 years.
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Old April 4th, 2009, 09:48 PM   #843
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I think once again we will have to agree to disagree, especially on numbers
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Old April 6th, 2009, 04:47 PM   #844
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Century Avenue, Shanghai, PRC







Located above Shanghai's newest and busiest Metro interchange, this 350,000 square meter project comprises a grade-A office tower, a 5-star hotel, and a 5-storey retail and entertainment complex. A 5-storey basement provides 2 additional floors of shopping experience and connection to the Metro station, with the remaining floors providing parking.

Year of Completion: 2010
Studios: SOM, WCWP.
http://www.hkia.net/corporate_member...p&pj_code=0010

Very disappointing. Former renders promised 3x180-200m. The tallest tower has 42 floors, should be around 190m.
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Old April 6th, 2009, 04:54 PM   #845
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I had completely forgot about that project.

Completion in 2010? How far have they come in the construction?
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Old April 7th, 2009, 05:32 AM   #846
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staff View Post
I had completely forgot about that project.

Completion in 2010? How far have they come in the construction?
Still working on the ground, so I assume they are shooting for a late 2010 completion. I would snap some pics as I walk past it daily, but my camera is shot.
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Old April 7th, 2009, 06:04 AM   #847
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Cladding going up on the Shanghai Grand Center on Century avenue. Progress on this building has been very fast recently. Sorry about the poor picture quality, I snapped this with my phone.

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Old April 7th, 2009, 11:06 AM   #848
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just read shanghai evening news, " vacancy for Grade -A Office space highest in 4 years"
If this current building continue, Shanghai may be looking at real estate bust.
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Old April 7th, 2009, 11:35 AM   #849
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Vacancy rate has boomed due to the huge office space that has joined the market in the last quarters. Just count the number of big towers opened in the last 12 months: SWFC, One Lujiazui, Jasper, Park Place, Mirae Asset Tower, Park Place, Merryland Tower, BEA Tower, CMBC Tower, etc. It will go higher as they are finishing Wheelock, Bund CITIC, BM and SIFC1 towers within a few months, and then will come down later I guess: Very few large projects will be completed from late 2009 to mid-2011. Probably only Huamin Tower. In 2009 the take-up forecast is around 380,000sqm, something like a whole Shanghai Tower project.


This chart was published a few weeks ago.
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Last edited by z0rg; April 7th, 2009 at 11:49 AM.
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Old April 7th, 2009, 12:15 PM   #850
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nice chart.

From 2004 ~ 2007, Demand > Supply, that's when all the projects started. When they are finished in 2008-2009, Supply > Demand, then new projects will delay until Demand > Supply again.

The same story is repeating itself everywhere.

btw, 20% vacancy is not too bad for Shanghai. It helps lower down the rental rate and promote business development.
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Old April 7th, 2009, 04:36 PM   #851
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I think some people had realised that there would have been too much supply but the World Expo sensitivity made the bubble bigger as what happened in Beijing due to Olympics bubble.
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Old April 7th, 2009, 06:49 PM   #852
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^oh langur.... oh to be as self-righteous and clueless as you. if you had only realized that art deco in 1960s america was seen as completely expendable (like how we see pre-fab brutalism today), you would see that whatever destruction now pales in comparison. miami beach's art deco isn't so different from the temperate climate cities. they just have more pastels and sun-shading. but then you're also here 24/7, and you've also had multiple accounts. i guess that can compensate for a lack of actual knowledge.

all the talk about property bubbles is just that; talk. developers generally underestimate their risks. property bubbles in stagnant markets are much more dangerous, as they're liable to stay empty for a much longer period of time. but in expanding areas, these bubbles are almost an inevitability.
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Old April 11th, 2009, 06:29 PM   #853
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Some pics by VAGRANTIDIOT.

Pudong Kerry Center, 198m.


Himalaya Center


For those who forgot about this masterpiece:




Zizhu Tower finished
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Old April 11th, 2009, 07:23 PM   #854
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Quote:
Originally Posted by particlez View Post
^oh langur.... oh to be as self-righteous and clueless as you. if you had only realized that art deco in 1960s america was seen as completely expendable (like how we see pre-fab brutalism today), you would see that whatever destruction now pales in comparison. miami beach's art deco isn't so different from the temperate climate cities. they just have more pastels and sun-shading. but then you're also here 24/7, and you've also had multiple accounts. i guess that can compensate for a lack of actual knowledge.

all the talk about property bubbles is just that; talk. developers generally underestimate their risks. property bubbles in stagnant markets are much more dangerous, as they're liable to stay empty for a much longer period of time. but in expanding areas, these bubbles are almost an inevitability.
Sorry but I don't think you know what you're talking about, and you clearly haven't understood what I've been patiently explaining to you.
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Old April 11th, 2009, 10:45 PM   #855
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By Jerryang. The plot at the bottom. At least we know they are working.
[img]http://i40.************/24wdmyo.jpg[/img]
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Old April 12th, 2009, 03:59 AM   #856
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z0rg,南京西路1788项目最终方案只有29层130m
http://www.jfdaily.com/jsbb/shanghai...212_476061.htm


http://www.news365.com.cn/wxpd/sh/ja...12_2126822.htm
一、建设项目名称
  南京西路1788号(4507地块)项目

  二、建设项目基本概况
  项目基地位于上海市南京西路1788号,靠近华山路路口,东侧为静安寺。基地与百乐门大酒店比肩相邻,建筑功能为商业和办公楼。项目设置为一幢超高层建筑,主楼分别为29层、24层、20层,由南往北作退台处理,建筑高度约130米。商业裙房为2-4层,高度24米以下。项目用地面积为12126平方米,总建筑面积为113244平方米,地上建筑面积81438平方米(其中办公67106平方米,商业14322平方米),地下建筑面积31806平方米(其中地下商业4611平方米,其它27195平方米),绿地率10.76%,机动车停车位371辆。
http://www.envir.gov.cn/info/2008/2008512767.htm
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Old April 12th, 2009, 06:28 AM   #857
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nice to see you've responded.

let me guess. your knowledge of this topic consists of a vacation and a 'lonely planet' guidebook? that's the most plausible explanation for your absurd accusations.

you INSIST the present-day destruction of shanghai outdoes the destruction of new york, or any other comparable city of the 1960s modernist era. off the top of my head, and using examples solely from manhattan, i can list madison square garden, penn station, the singer building, the cotton exchange, the german savings bank,the herald building, and the innumerable plots in midtown manhattan occupied by modernist era boxes. they were all A-list buildings that unfortunately fell to the lure of developer profits. you can google every one of them. in other cities, 'historic' buildings were destroyed because of a need to accommodate the car and its space for parking lots and off-ramps. similarly, hong kong (and i'm picking hong kong because you just might cite me as unfairly singling out western cities as an example of the 60s lust for architectural destruction) destroyed most of its central district and replaced them with modernist boxes.

if a similar pattern of destruction occurred in present-day shanghai, you'd have to implode half of the restored and now highly-prized buildings on the bund. remember, historical architecture's value only became ingrained into peoples' consciousness in the late 60s and beyond, and the wholesale architectural destruction of that period has no contemporary equal. places like pudong were developed (as opposed to developer driven demolitions of the most convenient buildings), partly because of a recognition of the architectural merit of puxi.

many demolitions of old buildings do occur in shanghai, but the overwhelming number of the buildings in question do not have the architectural nor historical merit of the destroyed buildings of the 60s. the residential buildings have come to the end of their functional lives, and were never intended to stand permanently.
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Old April 12th, 2009, 06:32 AM   #858
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OMG, it's perfect for a halloween party

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Old April 12th, 2009, 07:49 AM   #859
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Awesome design.
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Old April 12th, 2009, 08:10 AM   #860
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a great tower in puxi , can't waitttttt
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