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Old December 12th, 2011, 10:36 AM   #1921
hkskyline
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But the focus should be on at-grade crossings. Who wants to walk in a dark, dingy, and empty underpass at night, with plenty of blind corners around staircases?
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Old December 12th, 2011, 10:48 AM   #1922
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Quote:
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But the focus should be on at-grade crossings. Who wants to walk in a dark, dingy, and empty underpass at night, with plenty of blind corners around staircases?
How could that possibly happen on those wide avenues? It's more efficient to have underground or overground crossings with less grade crossings if possible.
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Old December 12th, 2011, 11:27 AM   #1923
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How could that possibly happen on those wide avenues? It's more efficient to have underground or overground crossings with less grade crossings if possible.
Well, if Shibuya crossing could work then I think it's do-able to have an at-grade crossing in Lujiazui.

Crossing upstairs or downstairs is not an efficient way for pedestrians. In the end, they'll just stick to the malls and avoid the street altogether. There's very little street-level pedestrian interaction in that corner already.
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Old December 12th, 2011, 04:33 PM   #1924
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There are lots of underground malls in Shanghai. I expect this underground crossing will be more like the underground mall below people's square or the one at the science museum metro stop than a bunch of empty passages.
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Old December 12th, 2011, 04:43 PM   #1925
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There are lots of underground malls in Shanghai. I expect this underground crossing will be more like the underground mall below people's square or the one at the science museum metro stop than a bunch of empty passages.
That just means the sidewalks will be dead. Nobody would want to walk outside. Imagine an area of big skyscrapers but not a soul out there but a sea of vehicles.
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Old December 12th, 2011, 06:44 PM   #1926
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
That just means the sidewalks will be dead. Nobody would want to walk outside. Imagine an area of big skyscrapers but not a soul out there but a sea of vehicles.
Maybe you should take a look at this gaoloumi thread:
http://www.gaoloumi.com/viewthread.p...extra=page%3D1
(renders are at the bottom of the first page)

In the future there will be more shops and restaurants on street level in Lujiazui.
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Old December 13th, 2011, 08:00 AM   #1927
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Quote:
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That just means the sidewalks will be dead. Nobody would want to walk outside. Imagine an area of big skyscrapers but not a soul out there but a sea of vehicles.
That is what you are seeing in downtowns of most American cities say Houston, Dallas or Denver.
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Old December 13th, 2011, 08:17 AM   #1928
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That is what you are seeing in downtowns of most American cities say Houston, Dallas or Denver.
That's exactly the type of city we should not be building. America doesn't offer that many good urban planning examples.
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Old December 13th, 2011, 11:24 PM   #1929
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That's exactly the type of city we should not be building. America doesn't offer that many good urban planning examples.
Japanese cities are usually the best. The US has some pretty amazingly well built cities aka NYC. Minhang, Songjiang, Baoshan should be built like Queens, Brooklyn, and the Bronx, not Houston, Albaquerque, etc.
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Old December 13th, 2011, 11:39 PM   #1930
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That's exactly the type of city we should not be building. America doesn't offer that many good urban planning examples.
I think one crucial mistake that proponents of such planning (narrow streets, easy to cross) do is the belief that such system is somehow by default superior to the system they think to be worse (wide avenues, no or limited level crossings). This is a very short-sighted and, I would dare to say, ignorant thinking.

True, cozy and narrow places are nice and those who're familiar with European old-town areas know what I mean. However we shall not try to apply this same logic to a 21st century business district in Shanghai.

Secondly, what's wrong with large open spaces? I think it's great. And in no way it makes the place inconvenient for pedestrians. On the contrary, it gives lots of space and improves safety. Maybe Shanghai is different (I will have a chance to see this by myself soon) but I had perhaps the most pleasant pedestrian experience in Shenzhen and Guangzhou which could only be matched by Singapore of the cities I have visited. They all have one thing in common: large open spaces and lots of greenery inbetween along wide roads and avenues which don't have too many level crossings. Wanna see what China (or anyone else for that matter) should not be building? Look at London... or American cities like LA.

China, meanwhile, is engaging into some of the strongest and most forward-looking ideology of urban planning and that's the only way to go for a country this size which has some of the world's largest urban areas. Those who engage in bashing such urban ideology (which has roots in the urban ideas once established by Le Corbusier) simply can't or don't want to look at it from a little wider angle and are locked in the self-proclaimed idea that their backyard is the only and best way of building a city no matter how much it may suck according to others... I am not an opponent of any of that but things should have their places. Narrow streets and cozy narrow pavements can be found in Xintiandi and other classic areas of Shanghai. I'm sure there are plenty of those. But proposing this for Pudong is a bit like proposing space shuttle to be powered by propeller engines instead of solid fuel jets.

The only concern I have is the lack of high-capacity rapid transit systems in Shanghai and perhaps other large cities. I.e. something like German style S-Bahn suburban rail system which compliments (or duplicates in some cases, especially in the inner parts of the city) the urban rail transit system known as U-Bahn (metro, underground, etc.).

And thirdly, Chinese planning is NOT similar to that of American cities. Yes, there are big roads and tall buildings in the central areas but that's pretty much where the similarities end. Chinese cities stick to similar urban layout throughout the entire big city while in American case all you'll get is a compact downtown area and suburbs only accessible by cars. In China's case you get a substantial development of public transport which goes along with urbanization and expansion of urban areas. In fact, American and Chinese urban ideology can hardly be more different.
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Old December 14th, 2011, 04:18 AM   #1931
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Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
I think one crucial mistake that proponents of such planning (narrow streets, easy to cross) do is the belief that such system is somehow by default superior to the system they think to be worse (wide avenues, no or limited level crossings). This is a very short-sighted and, I would dare to say, ignorant thinking.

True, cozy and narrow places are nice and those who're familiar with European old-town areas know what I mean. However we shall not try to apply this same logic to a 21st century business district in Shanghai.

Secondly, what's wrong with large open spaces? I think it's great. And in no way it makes the place inconvenient for pedestrians. On the contrary, it gives lots of space and improves safety. Maybe Shanghai is different (I will have a chance to see this by myself soon) but I had perhaps the most pleasant pedestrian experience in Shenzhen and Guangzhou which could only be matched by Singapore of the cities I have visited. They all have one thing in common: large open spaces and lots of greenery inbetween along wide roads and avenues which don't have too many level crossings. Wanna see what China (or anyone else for that matter) should not be building? Look at London... or American cities like LA.

China, meanwhile, is engaging into some of the strongest and most forward-looking ideology of urban planning and that's the only way to go for a country this size which has some of the world's largest urban areas. Those who engage in bashing such urban ideology (which has roots in the urban ideas once established by Le Corbusier) simply can't or don't want to look at it from a little wider angle and are locked in the self-proclaimed idea that their backyard is the only and best way of building a city no matter how much it may suck according to others... I am not an opponent of any of that but things should have their places. Narrow streets and cozy narrow pavements can be found in Xintiandi and other classic areas of Shanghai. I'm sure there are plenty of those. But proposing this for Pudong is a bit like proposing space shuttle to be powered by propeller engines instead of solid fuel jets.

The only concern I have is the lack of high-capacity rapid transit systems in Shanghai and perhaps other large cities. I.e. something like German style S-Bahn suburban rail system which compliments (or duplicates in some cases, especially in the inner parts of the city) the urban rail transit system known as U-Bahn (metro, underground, etc.).

And thirdly, Chinese planning is NOT similar to that of American cities. Yes, there are big roads and tall buildings in the central areas but that's pretty much where the similarities end. Chinese cities stick to similar urban layout throughout the entire big city while in American case all you'll get is a compact downtown area and suburbs only accessible by cars. In China's case you get a substantial development of public transport which goes along with urbanization and expansion of urban areas. In fact, American and Chinese urban ideology can hardly be more different.
Good planning is not exclusively restricted to narrow streets that are easily crossable. That's a very myopic view of how good cities work. It's a whole integrated package. Wide avenues are not necessarily bad planning either as there are numerous good examples such as the Champs in Paris and the Diagonal in Barcelona.

The key to consider is the interaction between pedestrians, buildings, and the street. Lujiazui's buildings don't front the main wide boulevard. That's the key problem. By building underpasses and bridges to cross it, it alienates people from the street even further. Perhaps the original planners had no intention to make this a vibrant street full of activity at all, but rather a big traffic conduit for vehicles to get in and out.

Wide open spaces only work when people have a reason to be there. The cozy European square works because people's homes and businesses front to it, so there is a reason for people to linger about there. Having a big empty square that is bordered by roads only is a recipe for disaster. Office workers would not want to cross to get to that space while shoppers have no need to venture out when they can do everything inside a mall. This empty space then becomes a safety concern at night.

The key question is why is the space there, rather than how big that space is.

China's urban ideologies consist of a mix of cutting-edge technology and backwards-thinking suburbia. Lujiazui's wide boulevard and building setup is clearly the latter than the former. I've observed that big street on numerous occasions on work days and on holidays, and that place is devoid of life in the middle of a bustling city. Clearly, what they've done is not working.

And you don't need to build a narrow street to make it vibrant. There are many ways to beautify and add activity to a wide boulevard. The first step is to build buildings that front to it and the people will come.

Shanghai's metro network has been expanding rapidly over the past decade, and now boasts an incredible amount of trackage. I doubt there is a need to copy other cities' suburban rail model when they can do it with a subway line already. The likes of Berlin, Frankfurt, and Munich are not dense or large enough to have subway lines running everywhere, but Shanghai can do it.

I suggest you look into some of the satellite cities that are popping up around the Shanghai area. There are examples of American suburbia already, with lowrise homes in the middle of nowhere that will succumb to car culture. Not every new Chinese development is like a skyscrapered Lujiazui. Unfortunately, there's a lot more American bad planning influence out there than you think, and you need to leave Lujiazui to see it.
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Old December 14th, 2011, 05:14 AM   #1932
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I can't disagree with some points you made. However I will refrain from commenting on the alienation of Lujiazui street level as I haven't seen it myself. I will be able to do that once I'll get a chance to experience it myself. My only comparison so far could be Shenzhen and newer areas of Guangzhou which, as I have mentioned, were absolutely brilliant in terms of pedestrian-friendliness and accesibility. I would be very surprised if Lujiazui is fundamentally different.

Regarding rapit rail transit. What I mean mentioning S-Bahn is not the extensiveness of the network (U-Bahn in German cities could serve the needs of the urban area perfectly well and cover the urban area in its entirety) but reach to the outer suburbs and towns, capacity and increased speed. S-Bahn is intended to connect suburbs to the core city as well as ease and speed-up travel within the city for those who need to travel longer distances with fewer stops even if that duplicates the ordinary metro lines. Think of it as a suburban railway rather than metro i.e. something that usually runs faster (120-160km/h instead of 60-80km/h).

I wonder how long it would take to travel from one end of Shanghai to the opposite one on the metro? Probably quite a while. That's why high-capacity, low station frequency and speedy rail services are essential to compliment urban rail transit. Anyway, I guess they will take the decisions at some later point. If i am not mistaken, Beijing has been preparing some kind of suburban railway network.
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Old December 14th, 2011, 05:51 AM   #1933
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I can't disagree with some points you made. However I will refrain from commenting on the alienation of Lujiazui street level as I haven't seen it myself. I will be able to do that once I'll get a chance to experience it myself. My only comparison so far could be Shenzhen and newer areas of Guangzhou which, as I have mentioned, were absolutely brilliant in terms of pedestrian-friendliness and accesibility. I would be very surprised if Lujiazui is fundamentally different.

Regarding rapit rail transit. What I mean mentioning S-Bahn is not the extensiveness of the network (U-Bahn in German cities could serve the needs of the urban area perfectly well and cover the urban area in its entirety) but reach to the outer suburbs and towns, capacity and increased speed. S-Bahn is intended to connect suburbs to the core city as well as ease and speed-up travel within the city for those who need to travel longer distances with fewer stops even if that duplicates the ordinary metro lines. Think of it as a suburban railway rather than metro i.e. something that usually runs faster (120-160km/h instead of 60-80km/h).

I wonder how long it would take to travel from one end of Shanghai to the opposite one on the metro? Probably quite a while. That's why high-capacity, low station frequency and speedy rail services are essential to compliment urban rail transit. Anyway, I guess they will take the decisions at some later point. If i am not mistaken, Beijing has been preparing some kind of suburban railway network.
Shenzhen also suffers a similar problem as the wide boulevard that crosses E-W across the new Futian district is also deserted, much like Lujiazui. Again, I think the planners designed it to be a traffic conduit rather than a lively Champs-style street. Guangzhou's new central axis in Zhujiang New Town is a little different. It's not a wide boulevard, but 2 smaller streets with a big urban park in between. Lots of street-level crossings connect it to the skyscrapers on both sides although they do have a pedestrian bridge every now and then. That's the type of planning I think would work but sadly that was not how Lujiazui was planned.

It will indeed quite some time to go from one end of the subway line to the other, say Hongqiao to Pudong. But do people commute like that? I don't see commuter rail being a high priority right now since suburbanization is not as severe, despite Shanghai being quite a large city. The central government's priority is to enhance the urban subway network first, which is woefully inadequate even for a large city such as Beijing (in Shanghai it is now less of a problem). Perhaps once the satellite towns become more established, then it may be worthwhile to run an express commuter line out. But for now, the suburban folks will just have to cope with a fairly high-frequency subway service.
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Old December 14th, 2011, 06:27 AM   #1934
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Isn't Futian still like half empty with construction cranes sticking out all around the place? I wouldn't hurry describing it as 'deserted'. It's not a completed development and won't settle down over the next couple of years or so.
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Old December 14th, 2011, 07:17 AM   #1935
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@Pansori

I know what you're talking about considering narrow streets. I was surprised at how unwalkable Hong Kong's streets were and how absolutely crowded everything was. It was a lot less pleasant than I would've expected it to be. Likewise, roads that are too wide with too much greenery is also not ideal. Hong Kong and Lujiazui are on complete opposite ends of the spectrum and a city should never be planned using either as a model (I see Hong Kong as almost a big refugee camp that somehow became obscenely wealthy over the past three decades, while Lujiazui is one vast park with the occasional building punctuating the emptiness once in a while).

Midtown Manhattan seems to be a perfect balance of both. Streets wide enough so that it doesn't feel claustrophobic but not so wide that it becomes pedestrian unfriendly. You have parks here and there but only so far as they are appreciated rather than a nuisance (compare Grammercy Park vs. the useless park smack in the middle of Lujiazui). Midtown Manhattan is an absolute masterpiece of urban planning and it is a shame that Pudong wasn't modeled after that.
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Old December 14th, 2011, 08:18 AM   #1936
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Isn't Futian still like half empty with construction cranes sticking out all around the place? I wouldn't hurry describing it as 'deserted'. It's not a completed development and won't settle down over the next couple of years or so.
Not really. The area around the grand E-W boulevard is quite developed while construction is more on the northern stretches.
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Old December 14th, 2011, 09:35 AM   #1937
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Shanghai IFC is under construction. Make sure you change that.
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Old December 14th, 2011, 11:50 AM   #1938
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I wonder how long it would take to travel from one end of Shanghai to the opposite one on the metro? Probably quite a while. That's why high-capacity, low station frequency and speedy rail services are essential to compliment urban rail transit. Anyway, I guess they will take the decisions at some later point. If i am not mistaken, Beijing has been preparing some kind of suburban railway network.
They are already improving this. The new line 22 of the Shanghai Metro network will offer "high speed" train services that run up to 160 km/h.
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Old December 14th, 2011, 03:13 PM   #1939
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http://planning.pudong.gov.cn/Upload...1633108672.JPG

partial plan how to use the site of the 2010 Expo....
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Old December 14th, 2011, 07:52 PM   #1940
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Not really. The area around the grand E-W boulevard is quite developed while construction is more on the northern stretches.
But I was referring to Shennan avenue (near the Civic Center) where lots of construction is still taking place. The area south from it is indeed lively enough and feels what it should be. Certainly not something one could describe as 'deserted'.
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