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Old September 1st, 2008, 05:46 PM   #81
rockin'.baltimorean
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red aRRow View Post
A beautiful church in Islamabad, Pakistan.





St. Patrick's Cathedral in Karachi, Pakistan.












St. Joseph's Convent School Chapel, Karachi, Pakistan.


The Trinity Church, Karachi, Pakistan.




St. Andrews Church in Karachi, Pakistan.




A new church in Karachi, Pakistan.





An unknown church in Islamabad, Pakistan.

nice churches. great architecture!!!
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Old September 2nd, 2008, 10:21 AM   #82
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If u agree to burn or damage some churches because of that silly reason, then u have no right to be angry if someone burn or damage mosques with the same reason... (But I think not all Muslims have the same opinion with you, just some crazy people who do that, and unfortunately I found you as one of them)

I think I don't want to continue this crazy thread anymore. I'm going to be crazy too if I alwayz reply to a crazy person's statement!
You REALLY need to understand sarcasm! Go look it up in a dictionary! Who knows? It might even improve your English comprehension! Retard!

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Old September 2nd, 2008, 10:34 AM   #83
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I think it's better for you to go, look up for your dictionary and understand what "MANNER" and "POLITE" are, and learn about it before you make a statement...
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Old September 2nd, 2008, 10:46 AM   #84
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Old September 2nd, 2008, 02:54 PM   #85
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BACK TO TOPIC:

Saint Lukes Church, Abbottabad, Pakistan

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Location:



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Old September 2nd, 2008, 03:03 PM   #86
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Holy Trinity Church, Karachi

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Old September 7th, 2008, 06:33 AM   #87
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good to see that in a supposedly conflicted part of the world, religious coxistence still...exists.
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Old October 20th, 2008, 11:45 AM   #88
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[CENTER][B]A beautiful church in Islamabad, Pakistan.
An aerial pic of the same church (circled in red).
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Old October 22nd, 2008, 02:54 PM   #89
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Just wondering. After so many years of suppression, how is Christianity doing now? Is it expanding?
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Old October 22nd, 2008, 05:10 PM   #90
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Years of suppression??!??
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Old October 22nd, 2008, 05:20 PM   #91
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Some people are really out of touch with Pakistan....


Spare yourself from being embarrased by asking stupid questions!!
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Old October 23rd, 2008, 02:33 PM   #92
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Well how else would you call it? You guys said it yourself, for many years Christians weren't allowed to practice their religion openly especially during the governments of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and Zia ul-Haq. Many Christians are still persecuted now, eg the blasphemy laws, and a Muslim who converts to Christianity still faces the death penalty. So I'm just asking how is Christianity doing presently in Pakistan?
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Old October 24th, 2008, 08:16 PM   #93
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Beautful!

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Old October 25th, 2008, 12:46 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EduardSA View Post
Well how else would you call it? You guys said it yourself, for many years Christians weren't allowed to practice their religion openly especially during the governments of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and Zia ul-Haq. Many Christians are still persecuted now, eg the blasphemy laws, and a Muslim who converts to Christianity still faces the death penalty. So I'm just asking how is Christianity doing presently in Pakistan?
POST EDITED: Check out Khanrak's post, he explained it much better and in much more detail than me.

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Beautful!

Thanks.

Last edited by Intoxication; October 29th, 2008 at 11:38 PM.
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Old October 28th, 2008, 09:50 PM   #95
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Main Cathedral in Lahore city.
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Old October 28th, 2008, 10:54 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EduardSA View Post
Well how else would you call it? You guys said it yourself, for many years Christians weren't allowed to practice their religion openly especially during the governments of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and Zia ul-Haq. Many Christians are still persecuted now, eg the blasphemy laws, and a Muslim who converts to Christianity still faces the death penalty. So I'm just asking how is Christianity doing presently in Pakistan?


Wait, so you think only Christians had to hide their religion under Zia's time (Bhutto didn't persecute Christians as far as I know)? Zia was a DICTATOR who controlled everything, and tried to shape Pakistani into some Saudi style "Islamic" Emirate. Even Muslims couldn't freely do as they liked during his rule, especially if you were Shia, Ahmadiya, or Zikri. He even passed laws stating that Ahmadiyas weren't Muslims, and had to call their mosques "worship places." The traditional and tolerant Sufism of Kashmir, Punjab, and Sindh was largely suppressed too, in favor of the harsh interpretations from Arabia, and my own home-province, the NWFP (that Pashtun province next to Afghanistan). The only religion allowed to really operate in the open were the hard-line interpretations of Sunnism. Christians weren't singled out for harsh treatment, we ALL suffered. Unfortunately, Zia's rule made a lasting impression on Pakistan, and the fundamentalists have become powerful, especially in NWFP and Balochistan. Despite the fact that they get clobbered in every election (except '02), the fundie fanatics have can mobilize their brainwashed followers so effectively that its impossible to repeal his religious laws. They can't succeed at the polls, that's why they are taking up guns and bombs - If they can't take Pakistan through democracy, they will try to take it by force.

Zia's effect on Shias is arguable worse than his effect on Christians. While Shia-Sunni relations are by and large very peaceful, and a large degree of intermarriage occurs between the groups, Shias nevertheless have come under attack by the Sunni radicals who were groomed under Zia's rule with CIA dollars and guns, since they were meant to fight in Afghanistan (where they were to go after the war, well, no one really considered that). Zia ruined a lot of things for a lot of people. But much of the anti-Shia attacks, especially in S. Punjab and NWFP are the result of tribal or class conflict. In South Punjab, the rich landlords have historically been Shia, and their serfs Sunnis. In NWFP, the Shia Orakzai tribe are fighting with their Sunni neighbors over control of some land near Bannu, as they have done for centuries. BTW, the Bhuttos are Shias, as is the president of Pakistan's largest private airline, AirBlue, as well some very prominent members of the Parliament, like Hon. Mrs. Espahani. On the death certificate of Pakistan's founding father, Muhammed Ali Jinnah, his daughter wrote in "Shia" for his religion... his marriage certificate says the same.


The Blasphemy Law is evil, but its mostly used to settle old scores, not theological disputes. Muslims are targeted by them as well because ANYONE who "offends" Islam in Pakistan technically is subject to those laws, not just Christians. Its very easy for an old vendetta to be settled by something so vague as the Blasphemy Law. Pakistan's brandy-loving dictator, Mr. Secular Musharraf, actually tried to repeal them, but the pro-Taliban fundamentalists threatened to kill him and cause widespread mayhem if he did. Point is, vendettas against Christians are settled by Blasphemy Laws - vendettas amongst Muslims are settled by guns. At least the former get some legal rights and press in the West.

As for the death penalty for converts, I'm not sure that's ever been enforced in Pakistan by the gov't (vigilantes are another issue), and in fact, I don't think its actually part of our law. When people talk about converts facing death, I think they are referring to the fact that they may be targeted by relatives or other civilians, not the gov't. If it is a law, it was likely introduced by Zia the loony dictator - who also changed the law to deem that criminals must have their hands cut off. As far as I know, no one ever was subject to that by the state either.



Sorry for the long post, but it bothers me that people think minorities in Pakistan are persecuted by the gov't. There is discrimination for sure, especially since Christians are the descendants of poor and illiterate Hindus that were at the very bottom of the economic ladder (some Pakistanis still haven't given up the Hindu caste system of their ancestors, and so poor people in general are discriminated against, not just minorities). Its unfair to say all minorities in Pakistan are treated badly because of their religion, because a lot has to do with vendettas or socioeconomic class (in the case of Christians), or tensions with India (Hindus... like how many Muslims are badly treated, and used as scape-goats by Hindu nationalists in India because of anti-Pakistan sentiment). There has been anti-Sikh sentiment in Pakistan because Sikhs enthusiastically sided with Hindus in 1947, and were quite active in the anti-Muslim killing sprees during Partition, in which hundreds of thousands of us were butchered (to be fair, it was a two-sided street of course). Since so many Sikhs were alienated and killed by the Indian forces during the Khalistan insurgency in the 1980's-1990's, I think anti-Sikh feeling has gone down. Zoroastrians (Parsis), are wealthy, and are not associated with India. Consequently, there is almost no discrimination against them, and they are held in very high regard for their business acumen.

Also keep in mind that some Christians have made it very high up in Pakistan, such as A.R. Cornelius who was the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. And a Hindu, Justice Rana Baghwan Das, was also our acting Supreme Court's Chief Justice until he retired last year. How could an intolerant nation tolerate minorities in one of the most powerful positions of power? While Pakistan's minorities definitely have some problems, the media (and many of our eastern neighbors) unfairly make it out to be FAR worse than it really is.
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[/CENTER]

Last edited by Khanrak; October 28th, 2008 at 11:31 PM.
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Old October 28th, 2008, 10:58 PM   #97
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Quote:
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Another view of All Saint's Church in Peshawar, Pakistan.

Does anyone know if this Church was originally a Mosque? It even has a minaret!
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Why do states that enforce Sharia always end up as the world's most repressive states?
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Old November 2nd, 2008, 10:06 PM   #98
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Man, I wasn't asking about how Muslims were treated under Zia's time and are treated now. I know how, especially more secular, Muslims are also widely disadvantaged by Zia's legacy and laws. But I was only asking about the Christians situation. If I wanted to know about the Shia, Sikhs, Hindus etc, I would have asked. So don't be protective and make it into a Muslim v Christian or Majority v Minorities thing, cuz I wasn't aiming at that, I mean I'm not even Christian. All I wanted to know about was the current situation of Christians cuz of the name of the topic. If it was about Hindu temples, I would have asked about Hindus, and so on. I just heard that under Zia many laws that discriminated against Christians (and other Pakistanis, including Muslim) were passed, such as the blasphemy laws and the convert death penalty (which is still law as for as I know), which still exist today and many Christians are discriminated against today in everyday life (not necessarily due to religion as you said). Btw I never said the government discriminated, but they do turn a blind eye and during Musharraf's rule there was an increase of attacks. Oh, and Justice Cornelius was before Zia when Pakistan was still a secular state, I'm asking about currently. All you could have said was this and I would have been content:

Quote:
The Blasphemy Law is evil, but its mostly used to settle old scores, not theological disputes. Muslims are targeted by them as well because ANYONE who "offends" Islam in Pakistan technically is subject to those laws, not just Christians. Its very easy for an old vendetta to be settled by something so vague as the Blasphemy Law. Pakistan's brandy-loving dictator, Mr. Secular Musharraf, actually tried to repeal them, but the pro-Taliban fundamentalists threatened to kill him and cause widespread mayhem if he did. Point is, vendettas against Christians are settled by Blasphemy Laws - vendettas amongst Muslims are settled by guns. At least the former get some legal rights and press in the West.

As for the death penalty for converts, I'm not sure that's ever been enforced in Pakistan by the gov't (vigilantes are another issue), and in fact, I don't think its actually part of our law. When people talk about converts facing death, I think they are referring to the fact that they may be targeted by relatives or other civilians, not the gov't. If it is a law, it was likely introduced by Zia the loony dictator - who also changed the law to deem that criminals must have their hands cut off. As far as I know, no one ever was subject to that by the state either.

There is discrimination for sure, especially since Christians are the descendants of poor and illiterate Hindus that were at the very bottom of the economic ladder (some Pakistanis still haven't given up the Hindu caste system of their ancestors, and so poor people in general are discriminated against, not just minorities). Its unfair to say all minorities in Pakistan are treated badly because of their religion, because a lot has to do with vendettas or socioeconomic class (in the case of Christians).

so keep in mind that some Christians have made it very high up in Pakistan, such as A.R. Cornelius who was the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.
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Old November 2nd, 2008, 10:10 PM   #99
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There are some beautiful churches btw What about mosques? Any pics, cuz they're usually very beautiful.
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Old November 21st, 2008, 04:42 PM   #100
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There are some beautiful churches btw What about mosques? Any pics, cuz they're usually very beautiful.
Check this, this is the only thread that we have on Mosques: Mosques in Pakistan
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