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Old October 30th, 2006, 01:37 PM   #21
Locke
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Does anyone know why they are ripping up the South-Eastern Busway atm?

It can't be more than a few years old so surely it can't need resurfacing already? (well all evidence to the contrary it seems).
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Old October 30th, 2006, 02:35 PM   #22
BrizzyChris
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It won't be, but it would be great if they magically installed some light rail lines on it.
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Old October 30th, 2006, 03:12 PM   #23
zach24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulvisionQ1 View Post
I think the ACCC wouldn't allow a takeover that large, buying Suncorp would create a huge monopoly and I doubt they would allow it..


What are you talking about? Size does not always equate to monopolistic attributes. The ACCC does not automatically reject an offer because of market capitalisation. They focus on market share and reject a bid that would ‘substantially reduce competition’.

A combined Suncorp and Westpac would command a smaller market share than NAB or CBA. Market share between PNM and SUN is the real issue (very uncompetitive). Retail banking would make up a small component of a combined PNM/SUN group (I suspect this would be sold off later down the track to focus on Insurance).

Also, Westpac and more so HBOS are significantly under represented in Queensland. Hence, ACCC would not object. Considering ACCC allowed the Toll/Patrick merger (massive monopoly which should have been rejected) this would not be a problem for a Westpac/Suncorp deal.

However, PMN and SUN represent a greater challenge in getting ACCC approval because of the large market share a combined entity would have in domestic insurance. I suspect any rejection or forced divestment would result in Westpac or HBOS making a bid. There are definitely more institutional investors who believe a takeover of Suncorp by a larger bank is more likely than a marriage between PMN and Suncorp.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 12:50 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrizzyChris View Post
It won't be, but it would be great if they magically installed some light rail lines on it.
why would you wanna do that?

* light rail tracks are more expensive to build than road
* light rail trains are more expensive than busses
* light rail is limited to where there are tracks, busses are not
* you can run a higher frequency bus service because busses are smaller
* busses can use the existing road infrastructure, light rail can not

is there something i'm missing??
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 12:55 AM   #25
BrizzyChris
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Light Rail is a far more attractive form of PT and has higher levels of capacity, and it's more environmentally friendly. Plus the tracks (or dedicated path) are already there. Buses could still use it, just not as frequently as they do now.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 01:02 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan View Post
why would you wanna do that?

* light rail tracks are more expensive to build than road
* light rail trains are more expensive than busses
* light rail is limited to where there are tracks, busses are not
* you can run a higher frequency bus service because busses are smaller
* busses can use the existing road infrastructure, light rail can not

is there something i'm missing??
*Are you saying there is no place whatsoever for heavy or light rail?
*There is a route 111 that just runs along the busway and never leaves it and is full almost all the time. This could be replaced by light rail. This would allow the buses and light rail to use the busway simultaneously allowing buses to the routes that leave the busway, and the lightrail to the routes that do not.
*light rail carry's many more people per hour and therefore nullifies the upfront cost a lot more.
*You cannot add more buses when the infrastructure is maxed out.
*If you only had buses you would end up like cities like the Gold Coast Sunshine Coast and Townsville, and that is, having pathetic public transport,
*High capacity rapid transit give the crtainty to developers that the PT isn't going anywhere. TOD's can also be created without fear the the PT routes are going to change, and seriously, how many major bus routes have changed over the last 30 years??


Is there something I'm missing??

Last edited by KJBrissy; November 2nd, 2006 at 01:10 AM.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 01:47 AM   #27
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Brilliantly said, KJBrissy.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 01:49 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrizzyChris View Post
Light Rail is a far more attractive form of PT and has higher levels of capacity, and it's more environmentally friendly. Plus the tracks (or dedicated path) are already there. Buses could still use it, just not as frequently as they do now.
So all of a sudden you have become an environmentalist?
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 02:15 AM   #29
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Incidentally, Gold Coast City Council has just signed a memorandum to implement extensions to heavy rail through to the GC airport. There will also be a link from Parkwood station to major stops such as Griffith University through to Broadbeach, via either a powered bus system or a light rail system, by 2011. More southern stops will be added after 2011. This is great news.

Anyway, it appears that light rail is the the public's preferred option - as indicated by 85% of the public surveyed. Some people see trams as a romantic option. In any case I agree with sentiments already expressed by some forumers, that light rail is the most practicable option.

http://www.goldcoast.qld.gov.au/t_ne....aspx?pid=6257.

There are many other interesting links at Translink. Hopefully Brisbane will soon have its trams back from the dead. But first we need to get many more cars off the road. I hardly use my vehicle at all, as there is an excellent bus service into Paddington and the City from The Gap.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 02:17 AM   #30
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I just wish people in Brisbane (such as yourself Redress and probably a couple others on this forum) would just try and do a majority of their trips by PT for a month and see how it goes!
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 02:23 AM   #31
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Thats what I am doing and I am not having any drama. Give it a go yourself and see how it goes...
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 03:10 AM   #32
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kj;

1. nope. heavy rail has a place due to its pre-existing corridors and the high top speeds it can operate at. light rail is questionable due to its lack of existing corridors, the additional infrastructure it requires and it's lack of a top speed advantage over buses.

2. great idea, but then people would have to change between a light rail service and a bus service. why do that? if a light rail carraige and a bus are sharing the same roadspace then they will both have to go at the same speed, so the light rail wouldnt get you there any faster. wouldnt it be better to stay on a bus the whole time?

3. good point. but a problem with public transport in brisbane is that there isnt enough passengers to justify running a high frequency service. that's why our heavy rail services are not high frequency - there are only enough passengers to justify a 350 person train every 30mins. if you make the capacity of the carriage (be it bus, train, light rail, whatever) smaller then you can justify running at higher frequency. surely a bus running every 5mins is better than a train running every 30?

4. umm, i don't understand? don't trains have the same problem when they get to capacity? the gold coast line is currently at capacity, what's the solution.. build more tracks? isnt the solution to a congested busway the same? don't trains cost more to build than busways?

5. sorry mate, those are irrelevant and innapropriate comparisons. those regional cities have a much lower population density than brisbane and so struggle to justify a good public transport service.

7. very weak argument mate, developers realise that their projects secure the future of the public transport service by creating the offices/apartments that support the public transport.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 03:25 AM   #33
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a) you've contradicted yourself with point 1 and 2, saying that buses are better because they have faster top speeds, and then saying that the light rail is only slower because it is sharing the same corridor as the buses.

b) We create corridors for light rail just like they did for the heavey rail down to the Gold Coast and through the Sunshine Coast. No difference. Infact, the light rail proposed for the Gold Coast can reach speeds of 120km/h...not slow.

c) Point 2 is as rediculous as saying that there are some routes that you have to change from 1 bus to another bus etc. Many people actually use the busway stations as their stop and don't leave it. Once again the route would be the same as the 111.

d) That is a load of bollocks. The 111 already is running at 5 minute intervals during the day and is still overflowing!! Also light rail does not hold as many as heavy rail. Corinda to the city is already 15min services for heavy rail. If it were light rail...halve it. That timetable could easily run on the SE Busway, if not more frequently.

e) @ point 4, 2 rail tracks has a MASSIVE capacity when compared to a 2 way road with buses, hence much less space required. Think about it.

f) Are you trying to tell me that the strip from Southport to Broadbeach has lower population desities to Brisbane?? Funnily enough, this is where they are putting in light rail!!

g) Developers loved the CBD masterplan when it was released talking about pedestrianiseation and rapid transit. Yes developers look at these things. Properties within walking distances of train stations receive higher valuations than those within walking distances of bus stops. The cityplan also tells developers where the council would prefer them to develope as well.

h) TOD's work around higher capacity PT better than a lower capacity PT!!
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 04:28 AM   #34
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kj;

1. sorry mate, i didnt. i simply said that they'll both have to travel at the same speed - i didnt say which is faster.

the point is that if light rail and busses share the same corridor they'll go at the same speeds, in which case what is the benefit of light rail? your capacity argument is misguided - the sydney light rail carriages have a capacity of 220/ea, whilst an articulated bus has a capacity of 200/ea. and a bus is much cheaper and dosnt require a track. so why go for light rail?

2. yes, but for every single place you want a light rail service you need to build tracks. with busses you dont. yes, both services will require dedicated corridors for major routes, but bus corridors are cheaper because they dont have the grade limitations of rail. you can't compare heavy rail with light rail or busses - it's a totally different service. i agree that heavy rail is the best solution for long distance travel such as to the gold/sunshine coast because it can safely reach a higher top speed.

3. so if it's exactly the same as a bus service, what's the point? as i said earlier, your capacity argument is flawed.

4. i thought we were talking about light rail here mate, not heavy rail? you can't compare the two.

5. again, light rail or heavy rail?

6. the majority of trips in brisbane are workers commuting to the cbd. there is no cbd of a comparable scale on the gold coast. that's why you can't compare them.

7. yes, all the developers thought it was great.. but when they asked the bcc how they were going to pay for it and they said they didnt know yet then they promptly disregarded it. the only developer doing large-scale tod's at the moment is fkp. and they are doing so on a favourable height ruling in milton. developers are not falling over themselves to do tods just yet.

kj it seems to me that you're blindly defending rail as a superior option to busses when it's not always the case. heavy rail, yes, for inter-city transport is great. but light rail for intra-city? not in brisbane. i think the billions that the government are spending on busways (and the zilch they are spending on light rail) indicates that they see things the same way.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 04:54 AM   #35
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I'm sorry but is says here that Brisbane Transport Articulated buses have a capacity of 100 passengers. If you compared that to Sydney light rail...that would be 2 buses. The Gold Coast Light Rail were looking at getting sets up to 50m long.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 04:55 AM   #36
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Sydney light rail capacity is 220 people per carriage? Do you mean the monorail??

I love the idea of light rail, but the only real benefit it offers that buses don't, in my opinion, is the dedicated lines, with obvious stations. Buses can be confusing, and it can be really unclear where you actually depart the bus. Many times I've tried to catch a bus in Brisbane, and ended up nowhere near I planned to because the stops (outside of the Busway, which is my next point...) are not signed properly, or in a different place than you imagine them to be. This doesn't happen so much with light rail.

However, with busways, the system works better. It is obvious where the bus will stop (station wise) until it exits the busway. People are using the busway because it is easy to understand and navigate. Plus, as has been mentioned, buses have the ability to exit the dedicated corridor, and get more people on board without the need to purpose build more corridors.

I remember when I caught the bus through the SE Busway every day for a while when I was going to Uni at Griffith, and the one thing that really, really irked me was seeing bus after bus drive past, full already before even entering the busway, and you have to continue to wait. Not such a great plan, and this will prevent people from catching the bus in future, due to the unreliability. Buses can be really unreliable too time wise, as they still need to travel at least part of the way on a road.

In any case, doesn't look like we'll get light rail, and if we ever do, it's still a long way off, I think.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 06:34 AM   #37
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Light rail is what we should be getting! or that underground line. **** buses! i'm bloody sick of them! so ugly!
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 07:19 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KJBrissy View Post
I'm sorry but is says here that Brisbane Transport Articulated buses have a capacity of 100 passengers. If you compared that to Sydney light rail...that would be 2 buses. The Gold Coast Light Rail were looking at getting sets up to 50m long.
yes mate, but i never referred to the articulated busses bcc already has.. there are quite a few companies making busses with 200+ person capacity. a quick google shows this dutch firm making 200 person capacity ones and volvo making ones with a 270 person capacity.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 08:07 AM   #39
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^ From all of this, I'd say the benefits of light rail outweigh the bus, especially on SE Freeway. So many people I've spoken to say it's near-impossible getting a seat at any point on that entire bus route, even with such high frequency. I think they'd need a continuous line of buses to even come near catering for the amount of people who rely on it. Bring on high capacity light rail...
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 08:52 AM   #40
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an emotive issue...
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