#ONHOLD: Umm Al Quwain: WHITE BAY

[Bobdown]

Will do, First Group have given me 3 other options so far but the cheapest one is more then twice as much as I wanted to invest, Surely if they can't provide what we pied for the opting out must be an option. When I was looking to invest I asked this question to First Group.

Q/ If we were to go ahead with investing in the project, are the
payments required according to specific dates? YES, ALL DATES ARE FIXED. We would hope that there would be a requirement on the part of the developers to commit to reaching certain stages of the project prior to each payment being made?

And I got this answer,

YES THERE IS. OUR FIRST DEVELOPMENT, THE DIAMOND, IS SOLD OUT AND BEING CONSTRUCTED AT THIS TIME. IT WILL BE COMPLETED IN THE SUMMER OF NEXT YEAR AND IS ON TIME. THE SAME FOR OUR SECOND, THE BRIDGE. SHOULD WE OVER-RUN ON A PROJECT THERE IS A COMPENSATION CLAUSE IN THE CONTRACT - WE WOULD ALSO BE PENALIZED.

They might be happy with giving back the money faced with that.

[biffer]

Originally Posted by wt

Hello All,

I bought with the First Group in Beachside apartments. Supposed to be delivered about NOW!

2 weeks ago they contacted me wanting me to buy a MUCH more expensive apartment in Dubailand because they claim that Emirates Sunland has an ongoing dispute with the government about ownership of the land!
They claim that the project is indefinately delayed and may not go ahead in the shape that it currently has.

Emirates Sunland says everything is OK.

Anyone know any more about this?

Seem to be many parallels to Al Salaam city to me...

Hi wt, I'm interested to know what other options The First Group offered to you other than the more expensive alternative developments in Dubai. This is very serious news if indefinate delay on White Bay and possible re-design if I have understood correctly. Bobdown and myself were given somewhat different feedback but your info could be more up to date, although I have not been updated by The First Group as yet!

Why did Emirates Sunland say everything ok if indeed it is not. Did they give any specifics?? This doesnt make any sense!

Al Salaam City appeared to have problems with utilities, electricity and the like, although some investors with this development seemed to think it was a smoke screen for other problems. I personally have a feeling that the project was far too ambitious. It just makes me wonder whether the failure of development on this project has had a serious impact on the overall final planning for White Bay?? In other words was Al Salaam City supposed to compliment White Bay and vice versa.

Which ever way you look at it though our money is still tied up in something which seems to be going no where presently!! What are your views on this??

[wt]

This is the only information that the First Group will put in writing (so far) for me.
You have probably also had experience with this company's total unwillingness to put anything on paper. They will call and call but an email..??? No. At the moment they are just ignoring and failing to answer my emails requesting for substantiating information about Beachside.
Emirates Sunland sent me an email (photos only) and had someone call me but they also avoid putting anything you can pin down in writing.
According to them, the project is going ahead and will have first deliveries in 2009, completely finished by 2012. This is not what Russell told me verbally.

What I see from other projects in Dubai and Al Salaam city is that we should AT LEAST get a refund with interest on the money we paid for Beachside or make them deliver.

I will NOT be changing my investment to another project with them. They have totally lost credibility with me. No more good $$ after bad!

On the whole I still think it is a good development and the price I got in at is OK so I for one would like to force them to deliver on the contract. If not I think they owe us for lost investment opportunity.

Here comes the email

From: Russell Clarke <russellclarke@thefirstgroup.com>
Subject: Beachside
To:
Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009, 4:17 PM

Hi ,



Thanks for your prompt reply, as you now know there is likely to be an indefinite delay on the delivery of your beachside investments. This delay is completely out of the control of The First Group remit, it is the master developer who has caused the problems.



As an open and transparent company we felt obliged to let you know of the position and offer you alternatives.



We have in excess of 250 clients who are all in the same position as you and we are talking to all of them to find a solution.



Most clients we speak to are moving the money they have paid so far into developments that we do have control over, hence benefitting from a return on the investment sooner rather than later.



Obviously, as we only have a certain amount of product available in which to take advantage of this offer, this has to be on a first come first served basis.



With that in mind it is essential that we speak as soon as possible so that we can discuss your options,



Very best regards,



Russell

Regional Manager



The First Group
TFG Real Estate LLC
Office 3224
Building No. 3 Gold and Diamond Park
Sheikh Zayed Road
PO Box 24573
Dubai UAE

M. +971 50 869 7790
T. +971 4 409 7500
F. +971 4 409 7600

[wt]

Personally I am of the opinion that these companies all lie through their teeth. It is EXTREMELY difficult to get any solid information and we can't trust what any employee of these companies says. Their reluctance to put anything on paper and insistence on phone calls is suspicious. Wish I had a recorder to record the conversations!

Having read on Emirates Sunland's website that the rulers are developing most of White Bay, under the umbrella of Emirates Sunland I find it even more peculiar that the First Group (on the telephone) claim that there is an ongoing dispute about the land that has been going on for many years and caused all the delays we have seen.
I agree with Bobtown that all contracts should have been waterproof; after all these companies are not novices! Land disputes can happen to the best in emerging markets. But it seems HIGHLY unlikely in this case.

So far the only offer from the First Group has been to switch out to the Matrix, Jasmin or other First Group projects. I wonder if they are just trying to sell the more expensive units that they are finding difficult to sell in the current market and using Beachside as a lever to try and push people into taking up these expensive units??

They probably will try to resell Beachside to us for a much higher price in a year or two if we get out now... Building seems to be going forward, if at a leisurely pace. Emirates Sunland is still marketing their stage 2. I wish we could get a better picture of what is going on.
Too much smoke and mirrors.
No solid information from any source but the companies who benefit directly.

We should get together and present a united front.
Demand delivery or compensation. Switching benefits them, not us.

[Bobdown]

I agree that switching benefits them and not us, I am going to stick with Beachside at this point but I did send First Group an email enquiring about a few things, I asked what I need to do to opt out and get a refund. The response was as expected.

“""As we have already stated, the delays incurred have been totally outside of our control or influence, and is primarily due to the amendment of the master plan by Al Murjan the Master Developer, and consequently a complete review of associated building and planning permissions with the Umm Al Quwain authorities. Infrastructure and land reclamation work is still well underway on site and scheduled for completion in the last quarter of this year.

In your e-mail you refer to contractual obligations that may apply in the event of construction delays and it is important that I take this opportunity to clarify our position so that there are no mis-understandings.

Through absolutely no fault of our own making, and entirely outside of our scope of control, we have been forced to accept the delays in construction and delivery due to the factors outlined to you in our last email.

For clarity, the conditions of the Sale and Purchase agreement between the First Group and yourself have not been broken and we felt it important to make it clear that the contracts to purchase cannot be cancelled nor funds returned to individuals as neither party is in breach of the contract.”"


I never did get an email outlining the reasons for the delay, I went on to ask about compensation.


“"Also the clauses of your contract define the terms and conditions that apply to any compensation payments and grants us the contractual ability to extend the completion date in the event of events outside of our control, defined as Force Majeure. Under these circumstances we are not required to offer compensation, and I felt that this should be made clear for the avoidance of doubt"".


So it’s Force Majeure then. I do have a problem with that response, I am no professional but I always thought Force Majeure was for things like war, floods, acts of god, not an amendment of the master plan by the Master Developer, surely this sort of stuff should have been sorted out long before units are sold and surely First Group should of made sure these thing are sorted before taking our money. I thought it was there job to look into and protect us from such things.

One other question I asked is why the projects First Group have offered me to switch to can be found quite a bit cheaper on other Agents web sights.(tens of thousands of dollars) I also found them cheaper on web sights baring the First Group name. There was no response to this question. The web sights I found are about a year old so I am not 100% sure of this as prices do change, but the way things are I would of thought they would be cheaper now then a year ago.

[Bobdown]

This is a cut and paste from Wikipedia,

///////////////////////////

Force Majeure (French for "superior force"), also known as cas fortuit (French) or casus fortuitus (Latin)[1], is a common clause in contracts which essentially frees both parties from liability or obligation when an extraordinary event or circumstance beyond the control of the parties, such as a war, strike, riot, crime, or an event described by the legal term "act of God" (e.g., flooding, earthquake, volcano), prevents one or both parties from fulfilling their obligations under the contract. However, force majeure is not intended to excuse negligence or other malfeasance of a party, as where non-performance is caused by the usual and natural consequences of external forces (e.g., predicted rain stops an outdoor event), or where the intervening circumstances are specifically contemplated.

/////////////////////////

So it would seem that whether we are due compensation or not comes down to how "Force Majeure" is interpreted and one would of thought that would be a job for a Judge, not First Group

[Bobdown]

oo

[laidback74]

Dear All,

I've contacted Emirates Sunland on many of the questions raised on this thread and am awaiting their response. I'll post it here once I have it. I'm expecting something in a week so stay tuned.

Verbally, they are confirming to me that all construction is going according to plan and they have no idea what FirstGroup is talking about. Let's see what I get back from them.

In terms of prices, I bought a 2 bed townhouse in White Bay at around AED700/sq ft. I'm not sure how good this price is now considering how much cheaper properties are getting in Dubai. Does anyone have any opinion on this? Are comparable properties in RAK selling at below this price?

[biffer]

Originally Posted by laidback74

Dear All,

I've contacted Emirates Sunland on many of the questions raised on this thread and am awaiting their response. I'll post it here once I have it. I'm expecting something in a week so stay tuned.

Verbally, they are confirming to me that all construction is going according to plan and they have no idea what FirstGroup is talking about. Let's see what I get back from them.

In terms of prices, I bought a 2 bed townhouse in White Bay at around AED700/sq ft. I'm not sure how good this price is now considering how much cheaper properties are getting in Dubai. Does anyone have any opinion on this? Are comparable properties in RAK selling at below this price?

Hi laidback74, wt and bobdown,

Thanks for your information.

This is all most bizzare. I thought Emirates Sunland and The First Group were working in unison on this project. It makes no sense whatsoever for them to be contradicting each other.

I have found a website, link attached with several units for sale in White Bay. The one that caught my eye the most was a one bedroom apartment in the Waves "completion date now", at AED 1,747,203. Dont know how current this info is, might be worth checking it out for comparison. There was also a town house for sale completion date 2011. So they are obviously thinking things are moving - but are they?? I just do not know what to make of it!

The other bit of info I downloaded was the Urban Framework Plan Umm Al Quwain. The-King registered user started a thread on this. The client is the Government. Developer, Urbis JHD another Australian company. This is worth having a look at. All the parts marked in orange are entitled "mixed use" which is what White Bay is referred to in some of the links I have seen on the net. I was wondering, if there is a dispute over land ownership, for construction purposes, whether this proposed development has any bearing on it. Is it a case of trying to incoproate White Bay with Urban Framework Plan or incorporating Urban Framework Plan with White Bay. I know this sounds a bit off the wall but its just a thought!

http://www.bhomes.com/UAE/residentia...s/253683.xhtml

http://www.bhomes.com/UAE/residentia...s/232819.xhtml

Any views would be appreciated.

Also look forward to your progress report.

[Madgwick]

hello to all, i am also owner of unit at beachside and am experiencing everything already mentioned,have had rather heated chat re options offered.i am not happy.i think they do have an obligation to refund us if they carnt deliver and that we should form a group together to bring legal action against them so as a judge can decide.the quicker the better!
does anybody else think that tfg are having trouble in selling out ther existing projects such as metro, matrix etc hence they have caused a delay on purpose to create panic with us, then offering us these more expensive units in these projects which they cannot sell on open market at moment.thisway they fill all unsold units on these sites because of panic and desperation and the fact of no protection in ummalquain for investors.they can then sell beachside and all newly available units in the future offering whatever deals they like and the exchange rate may be more favourable at this time also.

[biffer]

Hi Everyone

In reply to Madgwick, I do hear where you’re coming from and I am as concerned and worried as you about my investment but I do not think the situation is as simple as I first thought.

I agree that there is obviously a huge lack of communication as to what the real nature of the delay is behind the beachside development. My own understanding of the situation is that there is actually more than one problem here. Probably lack of utilities, (please see link attached, (an interesting read) dispute of part of the land for White Bay Development, time taken to complete infrastructure programme, changes to the master plan etc etc.

http://www.zawya.com/printstory.cfm?...l=055200080302


The fundamental point we have to understand here is that we as investors are clients of The First Group (I'm addressing those investors who bought from TFG and not direct from developer) and The First Group are in turn clients of the Al Murjan Master Developer/Emirates Sunland Group. Therefore, the clause in the contract Force Majeure applies equally to The First Group with the contract they hold with the Master Developer as it does in our contract with The First Group.

From what I can glean from The First Group the contract they hold with the Master Developer is for only a fraction of the White Bay development, predominantly, the Beachside apartments, therefore, I do not personally consider that they would have the influence to slow down the construction of Beachside in order to give them a chance to facilitate capacity in their other developments in Dubai. I do, however, think that The First Group, have made an error by not offering their investors alternatives in other developments (by way of a concession due to the delays on Beachside) at a price we agreed to in our original contract. This would have then created a realistic and feasible option if we wanted to jump ship! This would have at least been a Good Will gesture!

On another point and I am going to stick my neck out here, (and probably be very unpopular with most) I do not consider that the First Group are deliberately being evasive to cause a panic I genuinely think that there are problems with part of this development which is completely outside of their control and influence. I don’t expect they anticipated any of this at the outset and are now in the lap of the Gods, along with the rest of us waiting for the Higher Archie’s to settle their disagreements and get on with the construction. After all this is the UAE where things can change on a whim and amendments to plans need countless rubber stamps and then enshalah it can go ahead which is in complete contrast to UK.

I think marksageeza made a worthy point when he posted the following:

you should check out the la hoya bay link, we went through something
similar, grouped together and looks like we've got the RAK government to listen to us and have decided to step in... just an idea for you guys but have no idea what the deal is in umm al quwain??

This is perhaps the route we should be taking. Unfortunately, it would appear that a lot of the developments in the Northern Emirates are on shaky ground, pardon the pun, if one goes by the other threads on this forum. Dubai has for many years now been under development and easier to get projects up and running but the other Emirates, would appear un-chartered territory. Hence, why we as investors are experiencing these setbacks!

Any views or comments would be greatly appreciated.

[wt]

Hello All,
I'm very glad to see more owners airing views.

I have asked First Group repeatedly for more substantial information about the delays but they just ignore the question. At this point I don't know or care who/how the delays were caused, I have totally lost confidence in the First Group and I want to get out.
I had a lawyer look at the contract and she said that the contract is extremely favourable to the seller and does not have any similar clauses protecting the buyer.

My concern is to get out of this bind without loosing money. I don't think anyone bought Beachside to live in, did they? Although mine would be a great little place to live, I think! If it ever gets built.

As far as I can see there is very little chance of being able to re-sell any of the units/developments we've been offered at anywhere near the buying price. First Group say 'capital appreciation' but don't resell. Ha! the market for their type of product is much smaller than for apartments for a start.
The prices of these units are much higher, both price per square foot and total price. Who is going to buy from us once we get stuck with them?

I agree, we need a lawyer in to protect our interests. Wish I knew more about law.

[biffer]

Hi Everyone

I am going to stick with Beachside for the time being and just press on for more information re when construction will start and hope that a completion date can be given to us by June this year. If June comes and goes without this info I will seriously re-think the situation then.

I bought into Beachside with a view to gaining an income generated from the Wealth Builder programme and therefore had viewed this investment on a long term basis. I was not in it to flip and make a profit on capital appreciation in the short term. It would now seem that prices have dropped considerably in UAE (just bad timing on our part I suppose, sods law) likewise the capital appreciation has reduced in properties in the UK . Unfortunately, the boom years have gone for a while! But I do believe that things will turn around when the world economy becomes less fraught but this will probably take a couple of years. I just want the Beachside Apartments to be built along with the other part of White Bay development and Marina project. Once the development takes shape it will, I am sure, attract many people in and the desireability of the Emirate will in-turn increase prices. Maybe I am looking at this through rose tinted spectacles but I am trying to remain optismitic at this stage.

Of course, there is no doubt that I am worried about my monies and I would expect a full refund should this part of the development i.e. Beachside apartments not go ahead. However, I am prepared to wait a while longer and hope the situation gets resolved.

With regard to refunds at this stage I would expect that a legal process would have to be gone through unless there is a breach of contract whereby the development is cancelled or indefinate delays continue beyond the time frame stipulated in the contract. I did stumble across another forum the other day which may be of interest to some investors, the thread is entitled- cancelling a contract registered user financier888 and romail both appear to have a good command of legal matters and it may well be worth posting to them with any queries you may have. All I could see, however, were queries related to direct contracts with developer but they may have info on intermediaries - Forearmed is forewarned and all that jazz!!

http://www.propertycommunity.com/for...-contract.html

Any opinions responses would be greatly appreciated.

[biffer]

Ooops posted it twice - got carried away!

[Madgwick]

i have seen this situation before,the time to act is now,some of the replys sound as though they are dis information by someone close or in tfg.how long will you give them?
tfg are in disaray with regard to investors, not in withregard as to ther own companys plans.i am in this situation because of lies.i cannot sell my unit for 100k less than i paid for it.when you are all ready if your not to late lets talk ,i like action and am willing to be part of a group action.in the mean time to any other potential investors stop and be patient do not invest in any emirate at the moment, until thigs get sorted this will take years ,do get a good lawyer to look over contract,as its not in your favour at all.its not a win win situation its a loose loose situation.i read and have read a lot of forums and i never thought i would be in this situation?
i wish i had, but i made a mistake and trusted tfg.bs.instead of a buisness deal its feeling like a bads long term marriage.i want a divorce!must say tfg is the first bad buisness experience i have had so far and this is due to dis and incorrect information so beware.i to was in this for the long term investment not a quik dirham?has any body done price research on this development?has anybody noticed tfg selling units cheaper than our purchase price, by quite a bit and when you ask they say, oh thats not right and brush over it!i could go on but whats the point ,the only way you will get a positive response is if we get together and stick to gether, and have a effect on ther buisness?or maybee you all haVE LOADS OF MONEY!

[biffer]

Hi Madgwick

Just a quick response in a hurry - do you live in Dubai? Sounds like you have first hand knowledge of the situation.

[Madgwick]

.i dont have any inside info unfortunatley.i wish i did.my thoughts are based on my experiences.and if i were a md of tfg in this economic climate,getting people to jump ship, filling unsold spots on other projects would be on the cards, especially getting them to spend more money as wellwhile saying that they are helping you!!
but who knows whats going on? looking at the site beachside never was going to be completed end 09, it will not even becompleted end 10,we shall see,tfg are developers they new it wasnt going to be 09 yet they continued to sell it to clients.at least we know what they think about us.
this cannot be right it is morraly wrong to peddle such lies and deceit,having experienced this from tfg i shall be parting company at the earliest point.i do know that if your name was michael owen you wouldnt be going through this,you would have been given a more expensive unit just like that.this doesnt feel like a wealth builder plan,i thought they meant it was for me how stupidits a wealth builder for them!
i am not one for arguing ,i have always found that when you are right and a wrong has been done, most times a judge will come down in your favour, this is what i think we should be bringing about.

[biffer]

Hi Madgwick

I think if you were to ask anyone on this forum involved in any of the developments, not just White Bay, most would probably not have parted with their hard earned money if they had known there was going to be a global recession. This is what has tipped the scales from boom to bust. UK is going through it, likewise many other European countries, USA and the UAE is not immune. However, we either get out or we get on with it! And I will get out if I find evidence of any foul play - believe me!!

It is hard to swallow that our units potentially are going to be worth less than when we purchased them. I bought when sterling was strong and off plan property was being scooped up in UAE. Now there is a glut of units in Dubai which are being sold off at prices which companies will try and command the best price they can, whether that’s right, wrong or indifferent, that’s up to the individual's attitude. I for one would not have bought into the First Group's other developments even if I could afford it! I may well have been tempted if I had been offered at the price I had already agreed to though, depending on the alternative developments merits!

My main concern at this time is when construction is likely to start on Beachside, and when the revised completion date is. As I said, I am in this for the long term so I will be affected by fluctuating prices. As long as I hold the asset and it is built well and the rest of the development is built to the proper spec then I will take the rough times with the smooth! I did expect to get remuneration quicker but a recession came along and put the mockers on it!

I personally do not know about the First Group's track record, I will admit but I am willing to wait a couple of months to see if a revised completion date is forth coming. I do think long term there is potential to make a capital appreciation and an income from these apartments but it is going to take time. It must also be borne in mind that there are going to be very few new potential investors as people are holding on tight to their money. I know I am.

I will of course be pursuing a refund if the development is cancelled and/or a revised completion date cannot be given to me in a reasonable amount of time. And I will have a solicitor look at my contract and let me know my rights. I am also extremely worried as to why we are not being told the reasons for the delay; this matter is my main concern with The First Group at this time. But unless someone has substantiating evidence to prove foul play then it is all surmising in my view.

Any comments and opinions appreciated as always

[biffer]

Originally Posted by laidback74

Dear All,

I've contacted Emirates Sunland on many of the questions raised on this thread and am awaiting their response. I'll post it here once I have it. I'm expecting something in a week so stay tuned.

Verbally, they are confirming to me that all construction is going according to plan and they have no idea what FirstGroup is talking about. Let's see what I get back from them.

In terms of prices, I bought a 2 bed townhouse in White Bay at around AED700/sq ft. I'm not sure how good this price is now considering how much cheaper properties are getting in Dubai. Does anyone have any opinion on this? Are comparable properties in RAK selling at below this price?

Hello laidback74

Just wondering whether Emirates Sunland Group have responded to your questions yet. Hope they have something positive to say!

[Madgwick]

have been informed that ther will be an announcement in next few weeks, sounded like everything was back on track, well at least proceeding with comp expected min end 2010 more likley beyond this time .were vague as to dates .
if this is true what about all the clients that jumped ship spending a lot more money on units in other developments?
well things could have have worked out very well for tfg.
we shall wait and see if ther is news in next 2 weeks or so.