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Old July 13th, 2016, 07:42 PM   #2221
Slartibartfas
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Agreed, it's not much more than a tourist gimmick to create the illusion of a multi-modal streetscape. Serious transit improvements downtown are going to come via subway construction, as with the Regional Connector.
I agree with the first part but somewhat disagree with the 2nd part.

Subway most definitely but also light rail serves a different purpose as a proper tram line. Tram lines are means of short to mid-range travel of downtown to inner suburbs areas (or possibly also centred around other urban cores and their direct dense urban environment). Their advantage over bus lines is the easy possibility of upgrade capacity to somewhat higher levels than regular bus lines easily can. Another big advantage is that unlike bus lines their corridor is very visible and hard to change.

Loops are a bad way of designing such tram lines. In Vienna there was an inner city loop but it was of course two-directional. It was abolished some years ago because even though it served the ring road which creates the perfect setup for a ring tram, that is not how people want to use the system. The lines had been reconfigured that the ring is still served but the lines continue out to the inner urban neighbourhoods around the ring road. And that is how it should be IMHO. To compensate for the loss of the ring line, one created a dedicated tourist tram which continues to do the ring trip every 30 min (with audio guide) and at a steeper price of course (€ 9.00 instead of € 2.40). Oh and that tourist tram is now only one directional ... it could be almost a US style tram like they plan in LA
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Old July 14th, 2016, 03:43 PM   #2222
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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
I agree with the first part but somewhat disagree with the 2nd part.

Subway most definitely but also light rail serves a different purpose as a proper tram line. Tram lines are means of short to mid-range travel of downtown to inner suburbs areas (or possibly also centred around other urban cores and their direct dense urban environment). Their advantage over bus lines is the easy possibility of upgrade capacity to somewhat higher levels than regular bus lines easily can. Another big advantage is that unlike bus lines their corridor is very visible and hard to change.

Loops are a bad way of designing such tram lines. In Vienna there was an inner city loop but it was of course two-directional. It was abolished some years ago because even though it served the ring road which creates the perfect setup for a ring tram, that is not how people want to use the system. The lines had been reconfigured that the ring is still served but the lines continue out to the inner urban neighbourhoods around the ring road. And that is how it should be IMHO. To compensate for the loss of the ring line, one created a dedicated tourist tram which continues to do the ring trip every 30 min (with audio guide) and at a steeper price of course (€ 9.00 instead of € 2.40). Oh and that tourist tram is now only one directional ... it could be almost a US style tram like they plan in LA
....I don't think the intention is to leave it as one, uni-directional loop, to begin with.
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Old July 14th, 2016, 06:06 PM   #2223
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update on construction of new pedestrian tunnel between Red and Orange lines in North Hollywood.

http://la.streetsblog.org/2016/07/11...rs-completion/
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Old July 14th, 2016, 11:20 PM   #2224
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To think where LA was 20 years ago with mass transit. This is actually quite a leap forward.
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Old July 15th, 2016, 09:07 AM   #2225
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That's Harriet the Tunnel Boring Machine digging just under the streets of L.A. for the Crenshaw/LAX line. When the line is done riders will be able to take public transit to and from the airport for the first time!


FACEBOOK POST BY MAYOR ERIC GARCETTI
https://www.facebook.com/garcetti/?fref=ts
Currently , are there any bus line going to the airport ?
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Old July 15th, 2016, 11:33 AM   #2226
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From http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/lo...386697841.html
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Old July 15th, 2016, 12:25 PM   #2227
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Currently , are there any bus line going to the airport ?
Ah, but as you know, buses are for plebs and so we can ignore them as public transit </reporter snob>
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Old July 15th, 2016, 06:25 PM   #2228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
I agree with the first part but somewhat disagree with the 2nd part.

Subway most definitely but also light rail serves a different purpose as a proper tram line. Tram lines are means of short to mid-range travel of downtown to inner suburbs areas (or possibly also centred around other urban cores and their direct dense urban environment). Their advantage over bus lines is the easy possibility of upgrade capacity to somewhat higher levels than regular bus lines easily can. Another big advantage is that unlike bus lines their corridor is very visible and hard to change.
I don't disagree that a properly executed tram line would be a boon to mobility downtown. But the problem is that many streets in DTLA are so narrow and congested that creating a segregated right-of-way for a tram is a near impossibility.

I would welcome reclaiming a lane for this purpose -- in fact, I'd favor turning some combination of Broadway/Spring/Main into pedestrian-and-transit-only streets, thereby giving a tram its own ROW, plus protected bike lanes and wider sidewalks -- but then I'm not a regular DTLA car commuter. It's hard for me to see the people who rely on the few packed, narrow lanes they already have being willing to sacrifice more.

So assuming that reclaiming lanes for a ROW is out of the question, you're stuck with a tram operating in mixed traffic, making it slow and unreliable -- it's already the case that when things are jammed on Broadway, you're better off just walking than sitting in your car, so if the tram is stuck in that same traffic, why would anyone hop aboard?

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Originally Posted by dixiadetie View Post
Currently , are there any bus line going to the airport ?
Yes, tons. The bus center at the C Lot has connections to Los Angeles Metro, Culver City Bus, Santa Monica Big Blue Bus and Torrance Transit. I've taken them a few times, and even the rapid service is miserably slow and anxiety inducing in rush-hour traffic. It's a good way to give yourself a panic attack if you've got a flight to catch after work. The best current option are the Flyaway buses, which travel point-to-point between LAX and locations in Downtown, Westwood, the Valley and handful of other spots for a flat rate.
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Old July 15th, 2016, 06:37 PM   #2229
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"are so narrow and congested that creating a segregated right-of-way for a tram is a near impossibility."

This is so false I would almost call it a lie.

"It's hard for me to see the people who rely on the few packed, narrow lanes they already have being willing to sacrifice more."

Poor Los Angeles car drivers. They've had to suffer so much. Oh please.
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Old July 15th, 2016, 06:43 PM   #2230
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This is so false I would almost call it a lie.
Maybe I should've specified that I'm talking specifically about Broadway, Hill, Spring and Main. Many of the East-West numbered streets are much wider, as are Fig, Flower and Grand, but if you want a tram to service the heart of the "DTLA Revitalization," you've got to service that corridor.

And I don't have traffic data in front of me, so I'm of course speaking anecdotally -- all I know is from my experience during weekday rush hour, or on a busy weekend afternoon, the three lanes of traffic on Broadway and its parallels have been at a virtual standstill.

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Poor Los Angeles car drivers. They've had to suffer so much. Oh please.
Also, not really sure where this attitude is coming from. Maybe my use of the word "sacrifice?" By that I mean the literal "giving up a thing they had." Are drivers in LA entitled? Sure! Would a multi-modal DTLA that elevates alternative forms of transport above the car be ideal? Of course! Does that mean we can pretend there aren't entrenched interests that make those changes a political nightmare to implement? You'd be crazy to!
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Old July 15th, 2016, 08:41 PM   #2231
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Three lanes of traffic? Some "broad way".
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Old July 16th, 2016, 02:41 PM   #2232
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I don't disagree that a properly executed tram line would be a boon to mobility downtown. But the problem is that many streets in DTLA are so narrow and congested that creating a segregated right-of-way for a tram is a near impossibility.
Not a problem at all. Do you think Vienna consists of broad boulevards only? Trams can share lanes with cars in general. If those lanes are prone to congestion however, simply make them tram and bus only. If two car lanes fit into the street so do two tram/bus lanes.

We are talking here about a single street, there a countless others left for cars. Given how a proper tram line can easily transport the number of people that could use the same lane via car before, there is no loss in overall mobility either. If done well, it is actually a gain, even if certain lanes are closed for car traffic.

As you suggest yourself. This is not an actual unsolvable traffic problem it is only made unsolvable because car traffic is considered holy and PT as something inferior.

Quote:
So assuming that reclaiming lanes for a ROW is out of the question, you're stuck with a tram operating in mixed traffic, making it slow and unreliable -- it's already the case that when things are jammed on Broadway, you're better off just walking than sitting in your car, so if the tram is stuck in that same traffic, why would anyone hop aboard?
You are aware that this is just another argument for actually closing car lanes, are you? If cars are even slower than pedestrians, but trams on their lanes are actually operating normally, this would mean that car drivers could see a benefit on changing somewhere outside of downtown to PT. More people could get better to where they want to go than currently.
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Old July 23rd, 2016, 02:04 AM   #2233
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The Capital of Car Culture, Los Angeles Warms to Mass Transit

LOS ANGELES — When the extension of the Expo rail line opened here in May, it was almost as if the city had stepped into another century[...]


Source: https://static01.nyt.com/images/2016...-master768.jpg
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Old July 29th, 2016, 07:52 AM   #2234
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And again, Americans do not know anything how to build a modern tramway network, why they keep building it in the mixed traffic like some bus?

Is there any reason to that? Have not they seen how the modern tramway systems look elsewhere?

Who needs three section short streetcar vehicles? Capacity is equivalent to a bendy bus.

If they want something ecological then a trolleybus system with bendy trolleybuses. But if they want exactly tramway then it should use long vehicles, at least 30-32 meters song and run on its right of way, that's the only reason you would build a tram, only reason when it is cost effective.

If it is gonna run in mixed traffic and use short vehicles, what is the point of having it? Bendy trolleybus system would easily replace this thing and be a lot cheaper.
Like a member said, this is more of a Downtown Development project, not a mass public transportation line.
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Old July 30th, 2016, 07:04 PM   #2235
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I never quite understood how a tram could be an actual "downtown development project" without serving any proper purpose in public transportation.
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Old July 30th, 2016, 08:18 PM   #2236
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I never quite understood how a tram could be an actual "downtown development project" without serving any proper purpose in public transportation.
Simply: Advertising a project as "close to the streetcar station" brings way more value then "close to the bus station" or "close to the motorway exit" especially for liberal minded folks who have more money then mind, don't actually check how that streetcar works before buying the property...
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Old July 30th, 2016, 09:38 PM   #2237
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Simply: Advertising a project as "close to the streetcar station" brings way more value then "close to the bus station" or "close to the motorway exit" especially for liberal minded folks who have more money then mind, don't actually check how that streetcar works before buying the property...
You are quite right that it's idiot bait, but then Mr Lyle Langley selling LA the idea was also in the idiot bait business, so the city is buying expensive white elephant idiot bait.

It would be better to spend the money on something useful. Oh, and not to bait idiots to come to your city - they lack the business acumen for a redevelopment to last, and you'll just be redoing the process all again in the medium term.
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Old July 30th, 2016, 10:11 PM   #2238
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Alright, lets be serious here.

Looking at a map with everything else overlaid, it does seem to be something of a feeder to the Downtown Connector. That's actually quite useful for LA, and it could be a good start to a larger system.
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Old July 31st, 2016, 01:54 PM   #2239
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...it could be a good start to a larger system.
That's the aim, as I have come to understand it.
It would appear obvious; then again, some people are deliberately obtuse...
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Old July 31st, 2016, 06:03 PM   #2240
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Simply: Advertising a project as "close to the streetcar station" brings way more value then "close to the bus station" or "close to the motorway exit" especially for liberal minded folks who have more money then mind, don't actually check how that streetcar works before buying the property...
Only if developors are susceptical to BS or practices which are dangerously close to fraud. Maybe they are, but would you, as a city, base your fate on smeary methods like this? This sounds like a model example of building a bubble and bubbles usually don't end well. What happens is that if enough of these useless streetcar systems are getting built that the whole technology will become devalued in public opinion and rather sooner than later it will be seen as something worth less than "close to a bus stop".

I don't quite get it, because for the money that is being spent on these show streetcar lines, one could actually built a serious streetcar line as well. One would merely have to have the balls to build double track lines, even if that should mean cutting back car infrastructure on that road. The second aspect would be that numerous efficient transfers to other modes of transportation are essential. A tram route designed like the route of a hop on hop off tourist bus which ticks off all the sights in some loop is pretty much the opposite of that.

All of that doesn't necessarily cost more if the city has the guts to get a useful system and does proper planning. But I don't see this being done and that is why I think it is a waste of money.

And before people add here that the plan is to enlarge the sytem. That is nice and everything but it won't change the fact that the big loop at the south end will remain pretty useless even then.
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