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Old July 31st, 2016, 08:13 PM   #2241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
some people are deliberately obtuse...
Do you genuinely belive that there will be much support for expanding a system that is seen as completly useless and a huge waste of money ? Look at Atlanta. They have built the loop, allegedly extending the system at later stage. But will the people in Atlanta agree to spend money on "transport" that almost nobody use even it was free ? IMO, this useless loops are the best way to turn in time again the public opinion against investments in public transport...
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Old July 31st, 2016, 08:46 PM   #2242
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The Atlanta project though was always presented as being a keystone in future BeltLine developments (see Executive Sumary, pg 2 [E-2]...

Portland - and other cities - have done demonstrable things with these types of loops.

One can argue the approach, but dismissing the goal, wholesale, is self-serving and, quite frankly, rather annoying.

There's no indication that this streetcar project in LA is viewed - or ever has been - as the end-all-be-all...

People just want to hyperventilate about it because they love to whinge about streetcars for some reason. Or else, they believe it's wholly plausible to build out entire transit systems in one go.
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Old July 31st, 2016, 10:05 PM   #2243
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Getting worked up and insulting does no good at all. Please stop and take a chill pill before coming back to talking about the LA Streetcar. Or better yet, talk about something else.
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Old July 31st, 2016, 10:39 PM   #2244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
Portland - and other cities - have done demonstrable things with these types of loops.
This layout in Portland does look like it would make a lot more sense though. You surely must see that as well. Yes, it also shares this annoying design feature of splitting the tracks to two adjacent streets, but it integrates much better to the other modes of PT and even more importantly if you look at it on a map, it looks like there would be plenty of possible ways where taking the streetcar would make very much sense, compared to just walking. And already its starter corridor appeared more useful in many ways.

Same can not be said about the Los Angeles streetcar.


Quote:
There's no indication that this streetcar project in LA is viewed - or ever has been - as the end-all-be-all...
No one claimed that but how far will it get if the start is already botched?

To make it more useful the starter line should feature more efficient transfers to both, the regional connector and the subway. On top of that the souther part would need to be completely redesigned. Such a big open, one way, loop serves no one who wants to use it as serious means of transportation.

PS: I am not an opponent of streetcars, the very contrary is true. But that is exactly why I criticize the LA streetcar layout, because I think its one of the projects which will discredit a useful means of transportation in the US, in the long run. That would be a pity.
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Old August 1st, 2016, 01:47 PM   #2245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
One can argue the approach, but dismissing the goal, wholesale, is self-serving and, quite frankly, rather annoying.
Where's anyone dismissed the goal - what's being dismissed is spending the money on a boondoogle that:
1) makes no use of the benefits of streetcars over buses - segregated tracks, longer vehicles, etc.
2) spends most of its time duplicating other routes and could be a better route even as a one-way small downtown loop of the same length.
Quote:
There's no indication that this streetcar project in LA is viewed - or ever has been - as the end-all-be-all...
No, but a useless loop will not be the success that spurs on further extensions.
Quote:
People just want to hyperventilate about it because they love to whinge
The only one hyperventilating and whinging here is you.

Unable to provide a reasoned justification for this boondoggle, you just go for the ad hominem rant.
Quote:
about streetcars for some reason.
Streetcars that are merely fancy buses are a total waste of money. This is one of those occasions. Streetcars can be great, but what people are objecting to about this scheme is that this is not one of the times when it is great - this is one of those times when it sucks. What's wrong with fancy electric buses (maybe even trolleybuses which use overhead wires, not batteries) running in a loop to fancy stops? That will have as much effect on regeneration, and provide the same quality of travel (if not better) far cheaper.

Do a San Fran line F and run heritage trams on it if you must have a small downtown loop - turn it into a tourist attraction as well as the low-speed, low-capacity distributor that is being proposed. At least that way ridership won't be as pitiful! It would be something like London's cable car then - still a waste of money to have built and not that useful for travel, but still worth running, now its there, as a tourist attraction.

But you have drunk the KoolAid and joined the cult of the streetcar and so anyone who says anything negative about any streetcar scheme must be a frothy mouthed streetcar hater.
Quote:
Or else, they believe it's wholly plausible to build out entire transit systems in one go.
No one is saying that - what people are saying that the inevitable lack of success and the high cost of this project will kill streetcars in LA dead and this will be what you get.
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Old August 1st, 2016, 02:16 PM   #2246
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I never even said that I like the alignment; I don't.

I also don't like KoolAid...
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Old August 1st, 2016, 04:31 PM   #2247
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If money was not an issue for the street car... I would like to see it grade separated in the downtown area then street running in some of the nearby suburbs, i.e. similar to Muni Metro in SF or the Green Line in Boston. Not sure how well street running in going to work in DTLA given the traffic congestion, and ideally you would want the street car to move faster than the gridlocked traffic (not be stuck in it). That said, I understand there are financial limitations and that this is probably more of an urban renewal project.
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Old August 1st, 2016, 08:11 PM   #2248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
(snip)
By using over-dramatic adjectives like "boondoggle" and "idiot bait" you are the one who is hyperventilating instead of acting rational. If you didn't use such extreme words, then you would be more likely to attract a logical debate.

Furthermore, you have done the worst ad hominem attacks here with statements like "drinking the KoolAid", which I find frankly offensive as someone who has a connection to Jonestown.

Yes, phoenixboi08 could probably be a bit more polite, but I would argue that the group shouting detractions started the name-calling. Once somebody starts using melodramatic or impolite language, things start to become fair game and the matter can escalate.

In an attempt to put this matter to rest, I will be contacting the agency responsible for the LA Streetcar. Hopefully, they can respond on this thread and address people's concerns, or even take constructive criticism into account. Please contact them as well if you feel so passionately on this issue.
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Old August 12th, 2016, 06:13 PM   #2249
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http://www.lamag.com/driver/metros-r...apped-perusal/

Here’s What the Future of Metro Could Look Like With a Half-Cent Sales Tax Increase

If voters pass a ballot initiative in November, this could all be yours

Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton, and legal weed won’t be the only things fighting for your attention on November 8. Metro’s ambitious ballot initiative would pay for dozens of transit and freeway projects should voters agree to a new half-cent tax increase and a continuation of the 2008 half-cent tax increase for perpetuity (or until voters go back and rescind it). For this proposal to pass, over two-thirds of L.A. County voters must agree to it—that’s nearly 67 percent.

Metro is hoping to mollify as many voters across the county, especially those in the suburbs that care more about freeway upkeep than new light rail lines (there’s plenty of freeway/road projects included in the initiative). The L.A. Times‘ Laura Nelson just got a peek at the ballot language:



While Metro’s proposal is far from a sure thing—2008’s Measure R squeaked by, while a similar initiative narrowly failed in 2012—many are hotly anticipating its passage. Steve Boland, a transportation planner and part-time cartographer known as CalUrbanist, designed a map that shows all the future projects laid out. Styled after Central European transit maps, Boland’s design shows lines stretching from San Bernardino County to WeHo to Sylmar.



It will take a while to build out all these projects, with the last ones opening for service in the 2050s (better eat that kale!). Don’t worry, plenty of projects will start work much sooner. Such as:

• 96th Street station on the under-construction Crenshaw Line (the station will directly connect to a forthcoming LAX people mover). Groundbreaking: 2018. Opening: 2021.

Purple Line extension, Phase III, from Century City to Westwood VA Hospital. Groundbreaking: 2018. Opening: 2024.

Green Line extension to South Bay Galleria, Torrance. Groundbreaking: 2024. Opening: 2030.

• Sepulveda Pass light rail or subway, connecting Westwood to the Valley. Groundbreaking: 2024. Opening: 2033.

There is no shortage of exciting transit/freeway/biking/walking projects this initiative (it doesn’t yet have a catchy name like Measure R or Measure R2). See a full list below, via The Source.


Proposed freeway, biking, and miscellaneous projects


Proposed transit projects
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Old August 12th, 2016, 06:30 PM   #2250
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2/3 majority sounds a bit insane over something as modest as that proposal. The UK could blow up its entire EU membership with massive implications on almost everything with a mere 52% majority.

Is there any chance that there could be 2/3 majority in favour?
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Old August 12th, 2016, 07:06 PM   #2251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
2/3 majority sounds a bit insane over something as modest as that proposal. The UK could blow up its entire EU membership with massive implications on almost everything with a mere 52% majority.

Is there any chance that there could be 2/3 majority in favour?
The sad part is that the previous transportation bill, measure J in 2012 failed after reaching 64% of the vote. Shy of the 66% needed. THAT SUCKED!!!
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...ion-fails.html

So, Majority wants it and it is possible. I don't know anyone in my circles that opposes the new Measure. So its very possible in November! Crossing fingers!
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Old August 12th, 2016, 07:07 PM   #2252
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66.11% is absurd, but that's what we need to pass Measure M. Measure R passed with barely over 2/3 majority in 2008, while R2 (Measure J) failed in 2012 with 64.72% of people voting for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
2/3 majority sounds a bit insane over something as modest as that proposal. The UK could blow up its entire EU membership with massive implications on almost everything with a mere 52% majority.

Is there any chance that there could be 2/3 majority in favour?
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Old August 12th, 2016, 07:35 PM   #2253
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2/3 majority sounds a bit insane over something as modest as that proposal. The UK could blow up its entire EU membership with massive implications on almost everything with a mere 52% majority.

Is there any chance that there could be 2/3 majority in favour?
Very different processes. The problem with ballot initiatives is that they are typically funded by very wealthy and powerful interests who stand to benefit greatly form them (MTA, insurance companies, realtors, health providers, etc.). And there is no organized opposition, because the victims (typically the taxpayers or consumers) are not well organized and don't have enough personal stake to take time off to fight the battle. For this reason, 2/3 or other super-majorities are often mandated so that there aren't a dozen taxpayer rip-offs passed every year in the guise of fixing some nonexistent problem.

Brexit was a much more balanced issue, with substantial players on either side and plenty of money available to sponsor ads, etc.
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Old August 13th, 2016, 12:16 AM   #2254
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Very different processes. The problem with ballot initiatives is that they are typically funded by very wealthy and powerful interests who stand to benefit greatly form them (MTA, insurance companies, realtors, health providers, etc.). And there is no organized opposition, because the victims (typically the taxpayers or consumers) are not well organized and don't have enough personal stake to take time off to fight the battle. For this reason, 2/3 or other super-majorities are often mandated so that there aren't a dozen taxpayer rip-offs passed every year in the guise of fixing some nonexistent problem.

Brexit was a much more balanced issue, with substantial players on either side and plenty of money available to sponsor ads, etc.
"victims"....
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Old August 13th, 2016, 12:21 AM   #2255
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Sorry, but if that argument had any merit one basically is saying that voters can't be trusted to make an informed vote without being told by campaigns what to do, in which case it would really better not to let voters decide on anything directly.

In Switzerland they commonly have referenda where one side is much more heavily engaged in campaigning. That is btw not guarantee for them to win a majority over.

Balanced campaigning or not, for Briton this was vote of epic implications and a thin majority was going to decide it. If anythign such a severe decision would deserve a 2/3 majority, not some random sales tax for something to finance basic municipal infrastructure.
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Old August 15th, 2016, 06:40 PM   #2256
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Exactly, avoiding rip-offs, although my hope is that M will pass this time. Voter participation is generally better during a Presidential election, and this one is kind of epic. I think it will just squeak by.

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2/3 or other super-majorities are often mandated so that there aren't a dozen taxpayer rip-offs passed every year
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Old August 15th, 2016, 08:02 PM   #2257
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Well, yeah, avoiding rip-offs would be even more effective if 90% votes in favour were needed. 2/3 majorities in referenda are extremely difficult to pull off even if general sentiment is pretty positive on one thing. Why do you think it is so rare that 2/3 majorities are the criterion there? It is bascially only used when those who made the rules didn't want referenda to succeed at all or merely in very exceptional cases.
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Old August 15th, 2016, 10:41 PM   #2258
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Projects under construction in Los Angeles- even without measure M

Even if Measure M does not pass this November, Los Angeles currently will have 3 projects under construction and more in the works. Things will just happen at a glacial pace.
  • Crenshaw/LAX Transit Project (mostly grade separated light rail)
  • Regional Connector Transit Project - connecting the Blue, Gold & Expo line through downtown - (underground light rail)
  • Purple Line Extension - Phase I (underground heavy rail)

Under study/waiting on approval:
  • Purple Line Extension Phase II (approved, waiting on Federal funding)
  • Purple Line Extension Phase III
  • Airport Metro Connector 96th Street Transit Station
  • Gold Line Foothill Extension Phase III
  • Gold Line Eastside Phase II
  • East San Fernando Valley Transit Corridor
  • West Santa Ana Transit Corridor
  • South Bay Metro Green Line Extension

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Old August 17th, 2016, 09:54 AM   #2259
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OC’s streetcar project gets $28M grant


Orange County’s planned streetcar project has received a $28 million state grant, officials said Tuesday.

The grant will cover a “mobile ticketing” project that is aimed at making it easier for riders to pay fares.

“I appreciate that the state recognizes the importance of the OC Streetcar and this funding moves the project one step closer to fruition,” said Orange County Transportation Authority Chair Lori Donchak.

The streetcar will carry riders along a 4.1-mile track from the Santa Ana Regional Transportation Center to a multimodal transit hub at Harbor Boulevard and Westminster Avenue in Garden Grove.

OCTA has taken the lead in development of the $297.9-million project, which has also received funding from OCTA and the federal government.

President Barack Obama included $125 million in his proposed budget in February for the project, which has received additional funding in House and Senate spending bills.

Officials hope to begin construction in 2018 with the streetcars rolling along the tracks by 2020.

http://mynewsla.com/orange-county/20...ets-28m-grant/
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Old August 19th, 2016, 12:48 AM   #2260
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California transport grants announced

USA: California State Transportation Agency announced on August 16 that it had selected 14 projects out of 41 applications to receive grants this year from its Transit & Intercity Capital Program. Totalling $390m, the grants are to be funded through eight auctions of greenhouse gas emission credits in the 2016-17 and 2017-18 financial years.

Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority is to receive two grants. $69·2m is going towards the $162m project to increase capacity of the metro station Union Station to 30 trains/h per direction, reducing headways on the Red and Purple lines from 10 min to 4 min by 2023. Another $40m will support the construction of an interchange between the Los Angeles International Airport peoplemover and the light rail network.
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