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Old December 4th, 2017, 11:12 PM   #2741
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So in the "General Musk-ery" Category, The Boring Company released their planned map for Los Angeles:



Red is Phase 1 and Blue is potential Phase 2. From their website:

Quote:
Los Angeles Tunnel Alignment

Red shows the proposed Phase 1 proof-of-concept tunnel for which The Boring Company has filed an excavation permit application. Phase 1 would include the construction of a 6.5-mile proof-of-concept tunnel through Los Angeles and Culver City. The tunnel would be used for construction logistics verification, system testing, safety testing, operating procedure verification, and line-switching demonstrations. Phase 1 would not be utilized for public transportation until the proof-of-concept tunnel is deemed successful by County government, City government, and The Boring Company.

Blue indicates potential Phase 2 expansion options, and is included as a concept, not as a finalized alignment. Phase 2 specifics would be developed in cooperation with Los Angeles County, the City of Los Angeles, city governments in the greater Los Angeles area, and the general public. The Boring Company looks forward to receiving feedback from residents of the greater Los Angeles area on station locations and system improvements for Phase 2 and beyond.


First the alignment, my initial reaction is:

Tunnel service to Dodger Stadium and Echo Park!! It also, somewhat surprisingly, looks like it complements LA Metro! It wouldn't surprise me if Musk has been working behind the scenes with Metro: more than anything this looks like a Sepulveda Pass line with an extension all the way to Long Beach/Blue Line and a Connection to the Orange Line in the Valley; a completed Purple Line to Santa Monica; and plugged holes in the current/planned system (Dodger Stadium, LA Stadium/Forum/Clippers Stadium, Silver lake and Echo Park on the way to Hollywood, Red line down to USC). The ONE missing piece is the Crenshaw Subway to WeHo but what would an LA Transit Plan be without a missing Pink Line


I've been HIGHLY Skeptical of this whole thing but this seems interesting. It seems like the "Loop" would be a combo of vehicle and mass transit, it would support both 16 passenger subway style cars, and Teslas could also hook onto the Skates and take the Loop (would really solve the "first mile/last mile" conundrum).





More than anything I hope Musk really is coordinating with Metro and if "The Loop" ever comes to fruition it works in tandem with Metro as opposed to against it, and that The Boring Company works to integrate their system with the larger Metro Transit portfolio) There's already so much planning and design in place, rather than re-inventing the wheel Boring Company should work alongside to build a better one
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Old December 5th, 2017, 01:33 AM   #2742
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Please don't post non public transit fantasies in this thread....we have a scifi thread.
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Old December 5th, 2017, 01:54 AM   #2743
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Alright goodbye
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Old December 5th, 2017, 05:35 AM   #2744
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LA will be the perfect city for trying this out.

I think the actual tunneling, including cost, can be figured out. The trick will be how to handle getting on/off fast enough with small enough footprint. But hey that's why they want to do a proof of concept.

Why not let someone try this using his own money? And this guy has a pretty good track record so far.
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Old December 5th, 2017, 05:38 PM   #2745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastGammal View Post
LA will be the perfect city for trying this out.

I think the actual tunneling, including cost, can be figured out. The trick will be how to handle getting on/off fast enough with small enough footprint. But hey that's why they want to do a proof of concept.

Why not let someone try this using his own money? And this guy has a pretty good track record so far.
Because he doesn't have the money to do this, JP Morgan and Goldman haven't exactly jumped on the hyperloop because they know it's a pipe dream. So he would have to get some municiple funding and LA will get hammered in the tax plan so I am loath to have what little money LA will be able to scrounge for it's Transit expansion go to a HUCKSTER trying to generate hype for his own brand.
At the expense of working class and poor Los Angelites who, for starters need a better operating bus network, depend on public transit.

Finally, not for nothing but the entirety of this project is hampered by induced demand and how the long lines to access this. It will be just as bad as the traffic caused by merging now.

And if I sound frantic it's because he may build this and LA may end up at square one needing more transit that wasn't built because "Elon The Great and Powerful" promised that this would change everything.
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Old December 5th, 2017, 07:21 PM   #2746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
Please don't post non public transit fantasies in this thread....we have a scifi thread.
Lol. Did you see Metros response to the Boring Company. LOL
same as your response.

Public vs private efforts to build transit along 405: How We Roll, Dec. 4
by Steve Hymon

Quote:
I honestly don’t know what to make of all this. Along the 405 we have both private and public entities — Metro on the public side — pursuing a transit system. The Metro Board, in fact, on Thursday approved a contract with a firm for an advanced technical study on possible routes for a rail system between the Valley and Westside.
Quote:
The Boring Co. seems to be trying to make it appear they’re a step ahead. Of course, they’re proposing a type of transit system unlike any other that currently exists. Thus far, a lot of their activity has been restricted to their own property in Hawthorne and they haven’t had to deal with an environmental study process that at Metro typically gobbles several years. Hard to say exactly what they’re funding situation is. Or isn’t.
Funny to me. were pursing a "transit system" lol and my fav....Funding or lack there of......lol
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Old December 5th, 2017, 08:08 PM   #2747
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The snake oil salesman has also proposed connecting downtown Chicago to O'Hare (funny, I thought there was already a rail line that did this).

What will he come up with next?
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Old December 5th, 2017, 10:00 PM   #2748
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How anyone from LA can't understand that rail traffic will never ever solve the traffic problems in a city with a layout like LA is beyond me. You can build ten times the subways and lightrails that there is now and it will still not be preferable to cars for the majority of the population. They will still either live or work to far away from a stop for it to make sense. And building all that would cost trillions of dollars and take a hundred years to construct.

The traffic situation in a place like LA will be solved either by autonomous driving which can pack cars bumper to bumper in 50 mph traffic on existing freeways or something like these tunnels that aims to take a huge chunk of traffic away.

Guess who's at the forefront of figuring out both these methods?

Does it make sense that all major transportation systems were constructed a long time ago? Even civilian airlines and the freeway system are 7-8 decades old. Train and subways a century plus.

An overhaul of transportation is long overdue. And it's coming. It'll take som trail and error but in a couple of decades it will be nothing like today.
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Old December 5th, 2017, 10:32 PM   #2749
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Elon Musk's tunnel project is really dumb. Decreasing car traffic with more car traffic ?
The guy is just here to sell more of his cars.

I hope his tunnels will not interfere with the city's future underground mass transit lines in the long run.
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Old December 5th, 2017, 11:03 PM   #2750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabouninou View Post
Elon Musk's tunnel project is really dumb. Decreasing car traffic with more car traffic ?

I hope his tunnels will not interfere with the city's future underground mass transit lines in the long run.
You all understand that if you drive 1 mile to a tunnel, then go into the tunnel for 20 miles and then drive 1 mile on the road. That means you are actually taking up about 10% of the 'space' a car driving on the highway all the time does.

The persons doing that would also save a considerable amount of time for doing other things in life. Time has a lot of value. Saving an hour on the commute everyday equals a 10% higher hourly salary.

Yes, who knows if they can solve the getting in/out? Or if they can dig cheap enough? And how much they can save on signaling systems compared to subways/trains? But we won't know until someone tries. And it will take a full scale trial to find out.

Musk so far haw a pretty good track record with anything he has worked on. Internet payments, electric cars, space rockets, batteries, solar ... hardly a miss so far. Personally I'ld rather give him a bunch of money than the black whole any current transportation builder seems to be. And yet so far it seems like he is putting his own money forward instead.
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Old December 11th, 2017, 09:53 AM   #2751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastGammal View Post
How anyone from LA can't understand that rail traffic will never ever solve the traffic problems in a city with a layout like LA is beyond me. You can build ten times the subways and lightrails that there is now and it will still not be preferable to cars for the majority of the population. They will still either live or work to far away from a stop for it to make sense. And building all that would cost trillions of dollars and take a hundred years to construct.

The traffic situation in a place like LA will be solved either by autonomous driving which can pack cars bumper to bumper in 50 mph traffic on existing freeways or something like these tunnels that aims to take a huge chunk of traffic away.

Guess who's at the forefront of figuring out both these methods?

Does it make sense that all major transportation systems were constructed a long time ago? Even civilian airlines and the freeway system are 7-8 decades old. Train and subways a century plus.

An overhaul of transportation is long overdue. And it's coming. It'll take som trail and error but in a couple of decades it will be nothing like today.
Well, it was the solution. But unfortunately they dismantled the massive rail system we had, which was larger than NY's, in the 60's. So, LA grew to a behemoth with no rail catching up with its growth.

So, I disagree. By now we would have stations and lines everywhere.
LA just barely got started again 25 years ago...so we cannot say that it could not be the solution.

This is what we had until it was dismantled (map below), the longest system by mile in the world. Do you know how far San Bernardino is from DTLA? or Oceanside at the San Diego County border?

Of course, they were heavy trolleys, but the system would have converted.



They're at the bottom of the Pacific now.



You have to zoom in to see today's system.

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Old December 11th, 2017, 03:23 PM   #2752
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That's the thing that a lot of Muskies seem to miss about his whole Hyperloop BS. The only real difference it has from regular rail transit is the propulsion system, which isn't rail's problem to begin with. On the contrary, a Hyperloop faces exactly the same problems that really inhibit rail development--land acquisition, tunneling costs, and (for very-high-speed rail) air resistance. Hyperloop has no innovative solutions to these actual problems, but because it's shiny, and proposed by someone in the private sector with an ubermensch complex, people are fooled by the smoke and mirrors.

As for autonomous cars...good luck. They require the exact same public infrastructure development that we can't seem to manage for rail, or even our existing road network, and the technology isn't anywhere near what most people think it is. There's also the problem of legislation around them.

There's no reason to delay rail developments which will help now because we're doubting that we will do what we need to do to make them effective solutions. Just do what needs to be done--zoning, ROW acquisition, whatever. Stop letting NIMBY's control how our cities are developed.
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Old December 12th, 2017, 06:35 AM   #2753
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I think it's a little far fetched also. Tunneling is SO expensive that it isn't viable. Other companies flying cars idea is also...dangerous. Love the imagination tho.
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Old December 12th, 2017, 08:18 PM   #2754
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Autonomous cars are an exciting technology and could lead to mild improvements in space efficiency etc. However the basic problem of the huge space demand of cars, autonomous or not, won't change in a larger picture. Also an autonomous car optimized city will be a low density and pedestrian hostile city, just like the car cities of today.

The key function of public transportation is missing and that is bundling movement patterns in hubs which can then offer a wide variety of pedestrian oriented infrastructure.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 05:30 AM   #2755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenni View Post
Well, it was the solution. But unfortunately they dismantled the massive rail system we had, which was larger than NY's, in the 60's. So, LA grew to a behemoth with no rail catching up with its growth.

So, I disagree. By now we would have stations and lines everywhere.
LA just barely got started again 25 years ago...so we cannot say that it could not be the solution.

This is what we had until it was dismantled (map below), the longest system by mile in the world. Do you know how far San Bernardino is from DTLA? or Oceanside at the San Diego County border?

Of course, they were heavy trolleys, but the system would have converted.


While I agree it could have been different, it isn't. There is no way a lightrail system will happen again on most of those streets. And the subways that could run underneath them would take 50+ years just to reach this size system. Even if there was money for them. And as you say yourself. LA just outgrew it. With all the suburbs now you would need 5 times this system. Ain't gonna happen enough to make more than a small dent in car traffic.

You will need to come up with a system that gets people within walking distance to work and houses which in LAs weather is a quarter mile max.

Ruling out flying cars, that means autonomous cars that people 'rent' for each trip. Hopefully the autonomous part means less traffic problems and the 'rent' part means less parking need.

And if you then combine this with a way to get these cars off the road for longer sections of a trip there could actually be a solution to the present chaos.

Seems like many here don't think Musk has seen a budget in his life. He has obviously made the calculations that this could work or he would have ditched this idea long ago. Don' confuse this idea with hyperloops. He seems to recognize the problems of cost and landrights for a vacuum solution (especially in places with no open land to build them on) and is staying away instead focusing on this short length travel solution.

If he can prove this works for a reasonable cost the red tape in many places will disappear quickly. Do you think Beverly Hills wouldn't want a tunnel with entrance/exits they could use for their car travels? They may protest and delay a subway underneath them because they don't use subways. And don't even mention a lightrail. But if this works (and yes, it's a big if) every neighborhood will compete to get a tunnel close.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 11:08 AM   #2756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastGammal View Post
While I agree it could have been different, it isn't. There is no way a lightrail system will happen again on most of those streets. And the subways that could run underneath them would take 50+ years just to reach this size system. Even if there was money for them. And as you say yourself. LA just outgrew it. With all the suburbs now you would need 5 times this system. Ain't gonna happen enough to make more than a small dent in car traffic.

You will need to come up with a system that gets people within walking distance to work and houses which in LAs weather is a quarter mile max.

Ruling out flying cars, that means autonomous cars that people 'rent' for each trip. Hopefully the autonomous part means less traffic problems and the 'rent' part means less parking need.

And if you then combine this with a way to get these cars off the road for longer sections of a trip there could actually be a solution to the present chaos.

Seems like many here don't think Musk has seen a budget in his life. He has obviously made the calculations that this could work or he would have ditched this idea long ago. Don' confuse this idea with hyperloops. He seems to recognize the problems of cost and landrights for a vacuum solution (especially in places with no open land to build them on) and is staying away instead focusing on this short length travel solution.

If he can prove this works for a reasonable cost the red tape in many places will disappear quickly. Do you think Beverly Hills wouldn't want a tunnel with entrance/exits they could use for their car travels? They may protest and delay a subway underneath them because they don't use subways. And don't even mention a lightrail. But if this works (and yes, it's a big if) every neighborhood will compete to get a tunnel close.
But the point is not to build a system that would cover the WHOLE of L.A. Metro Area. Of course, there will always be suburbs that will remain suburbs, and there will always be people who will prefer to live in these suburbs and exclusively drive cars.

The point is to create a system that will be relatively dense in the larger urban core (roughly the northern part of the Basin - so Westside, Hollywood, Downtown, Wilshire, Culver City etc, and a little bit the southern edge of the Valley) that will look like an actual city and be easily and quickly accessible and traversable by public transport. There are many many people who prefer to live in a city and not have a car, but these people don't have much options in LA Area. Of course, the system will have tentacles that are reaching into the suburbs, but the "core" is the focal point.

This core is already increasing the number of new high-density residential developments. The density of people is bringing the density of economic activity (small and mid-sized retail, offices etc.), which attracts more people, which in turn attracts more companies and transit-oriented development etc. This is how cities came to be in the first place. But the arrival of freeways, the dismantling of public transport and the purposeful abandonment of inner cities with the promise of the perfect life in the suburbs turned this city inside out and created the suburbian behemoth that it is today. Without a car you are doomed, and if you do have a car, you're probably either commuting for two hours every day, or you are paying insane prices to live close to where you work. And self-driving cars are not the solution, because it further deepens the social isolation. In 40 years everyone will be able to work from home and shop online (or just 3D print food, clothes and furniture) so technically everyone could live in the countryside, but people will still live in cities because they like to be in nice places where there are a lot of other people.

Just like LA was able to switch from being a public transit city into a car&freeway city within two or three decades, it can easily build out its central core which will be like a city within a city within the same amount of time.

I live in Amsterdam. The Dutch also had a phase where they started to design cities for cars, they were covering up the old canals to make huge roads, and most people had a car. Then in the 70s and 80s people started protesting because of the number of accidents, the smog, the traffic, and generally how it made the city unpleasant. Then the government changed legislation (crucial!), cities started planning better, and now it's again a city where 70% of people ride bikes daily, and most either bike, walk or use public transport. In the three and a half years that I've lived here, I've met only two people that had a car, and those were company cars. Even CEO's bike to work (even if there's some rain) because it's more pleasant, it's quick, it's safe and they live close to their workplace. Of course, LA will never be Amsterdam, but the point is that this can be done in any city (if only in a relatively small part of the city), and I'm sure there are so many people who would want to live in this kind of area of LA. You can tell by the prices of homes and rent in these dense urban areas that are pleasant to live in.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 08:46 PM   #2757
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Originally Posted by LastGammal View Post
While I agree it could have been different, it isn't. There is no way a lightrail system will happen again on most of those streets. And the subways that could run underneath them would take 50+ years just to reach this size system. Even if there was money for them. And as you say yourself. LA just outgrew it. With all the suburbs now you would need 5 times this system. Ain't gonna happen enough to make more than a small dent in car traffic.

You will need to come up with a system that gets people within walking distance to work and houses which in LAs weather is a quarter mile max.

Ruling out flying cars, that means autonomous cars that people 'rent' for each trip. Hopefully the autonomous part means less traffic problems and the 'rent' part means less parking need.
So tell me, what are some underground autonomous e-car highways going to change radically? Other than taking away some of the noise caused by car traffic, for a very hefty price tag.
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Old December 14th, 2017, 04:52 AM   #2758
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So tell me, what are some underground autonomous e-car highways going to change radically? Other than taking away some of the noise caused by car traffic, for a very hefty price tag.
Cut down on time sitting still on the freeway? Again, a car that makes a trip in 10 minutes instead of an hour takes up roughly 15% of the space. If this works a single lane tunnel will be able to take the same traffic as several car lanes on the ground.
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Old December 14th, 2017, 05:01 AM   #2759
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Just like LA was able to switch from being a public transit city into a car&freeway city within two or three decades, it can easily build out its central core which will be like a city within a city within the same amount of time.

I live in Amsterdam. The Dutch also had a phase where they started to design cities for cars, they were covering up the old canals to make huge roads, and most people had a car. Then in the 70s and 80s people started protesting because of the number of accidents, the smog, the traffic, and generally how it made the city unpleasant. Then the government changed legislation (crucial!), cities started planning better, and now it's again a city where 70% of people ride bikes daily, and most either bike, walk or use public transport. In the three and a half years that I've lived here, I've met only two people that had a car, and those were company cars. Even CEO's bike to work (even if there's some rain) because it's more pleasant, it's quick, it's safe and they live close to their workplace. Of course, LA will never be Amsterdam, but the point is that this can be done in any city (if only in a relatively small part of the city), and I'm sure there are so many people who would want to live in this kind of area of LA. You can tell by the prices of homes and rent in these dense urban areas that are pleasant to live in.
You can bike anywhere in 20 minutes in Amsterdam. In LA nobody can live without air conditioning. You will never, ever, get a meaningful mass of people start biking or walking any kind of distances.

The first trials for this is intended to be a substitute to driving on the freeways. A lightrail going around downtown will do nothing for people needing to move from one side of LA to another. This is the problem that needs to be solved. Lightrails or subways will not help.
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Old December 14th, 2017, 07:09 AM   #2760
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You can bike anywhere in 20 minutes in Amsterdam. In LA nobody can live without air conditioning..
People can live in LA without air conditioning - lots do. I lived multiple places, on the west side/coast without AC in the mid 70's. I can't recall AC being in the homes and apartments of friends and family.

I used to bike all the time from Venice to Westwood even though there were no bike lanes. Probably not a good idea safety wise, but if there were proper bike lanes I think it would be doable for a lot people that live within 10k of work.
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