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Old January 11th, 2015, 09:27 PM   #1461
Sunfuns
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How certain are you they'll be empty? I'm not saying this is a particularly worthwhile project, but in a huge metropolis like this you only need a very tiny portion of population plus tourists to fill them.
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Old January 11th, 2015, 09:40 PM   #1462
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If the project isn't good enough they might reach only bus-like ridership which would be a reason why not to build streetcars in the future.
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Old January 11th, 2015, 11:23 PM   #1463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nr23Derek View Post
Eek - don't get carried away there folks

3.8-miles, seriously, why bother?

Derek
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAronymous View Post
A loop sharing lanes with cars. Why bother.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woonsocket54 View Post
Streetcars? Really?

Is there no end to this sick fetish?

Folks, first lets understand a few things. LA had the largest public rail system in the world, far past New York, Chicago, Paris, London, Tokyo etc. So there's a sentimental factor in bringing back the street car, as I recall it, they will probably look like the old Red Cars.

Number 2. If you live in LA, you will know that LA's city blocks are larger then usual. They are not the dinky European (and Latin American) type, or the usual east coast size. We have large blocks here.

Number 3. Downtown will absolutely benefit from a grade touristy-street car. Businesses are all on board....have you tried walking all over Downtown?

This "loop" would only be the first of a well-connected at-grade "touristy" street car, reminiscent of the old days. No they weren't a Disney imagination, they actually emulate the old Pacific Electric Red Cars of Los Angeles.

Echo Park



Hollywood Blvd.



Santa Monica Blvd.



Disney emulates them....................


Last edited by Kenni; January 11th, 2015 at 11:36 PM.
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Old January 11th, 2015, 11:29 PM   #1464
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As long as Metro doesn't think that this kind of thing can replace actual, proper subways along busy commuter corridors, and at least grade-separated light rail running between them, then I'm cool with it.

Speaking of loops though, I had a crazy thought -- what would you folks think of a London-style subway loop in Los Angeles, say extending the Red Line from NoHo to Burbank Airport, DT Burbank, Glendale and back to DTLA? Do loops confuse people? It seems like such a thing would do bonkers amounts of business...
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Old January 11th, 2015, 11:44 PM   #1465
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I may e wrong, I'm going on memory here, but I remember the street car being a separate initiative, of course Metro will be involved, but it's mostly a separate thing.

Broadway

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Old January 11th, 2015, 11:52 PM   #1466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenni View Post
Folks, first lets understand a few things. LA had the largest public rail system in the world, far past New York, Chicago, Paris, London, Tokyo etc. So there's a sentimental factor in bringing back the street car, as I recall it, they will probably look like the old Red Cars.

Number 2. If you live in LA, you will know that LA's city blocks are larger then usual. They are not the dinky European (and Latin American) type, or the usual east coast size. We have large blocks here.
But back in the days of the old Red Cars, there was relatively little automobile traffic, so streetcars sharing lanes with cars was not an issue. These days, it's a recipe for failure. If the blocks are that big, can't they put in room for a streetcar-dedicated lane?
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Old January 12th, 2015, 01:09 AM   #1467
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From Los Angeles Daily News:
It is a short line, but it will be heavily used and could be the start of a larger system. It appears that wit will connect to several Red Line subway stations and will connect a significant number of downtown points. This will be a great way to reconnect those points, which are outside of walking distance from the subway stations. Unlike the standalone starter lines in a few other cities, this will be packed as it will be part of a far larger network in a very large city with a popular downtown. Even if it is empty in the beginning, it will be a huge catalyst for future development, at far less cost than a LRT line in a dedicated underground right of way. If there are bus lanes already, the streetcar can use them or new ones.
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Old January 12th, 2015, 01:40 AM   #1468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woonsocket54 View Post
But back in the days of the old Red Cars, there was relatively little automobile traffic, so streetcars sharing lanes with cars was not an issue. These days, it's a recipe for failure. If the blocks are that big, can't they put in room for a streetcar-dedicated lane?
I understand that the street car shares the lane with general traffic, but we have to understand the type of traffic that circulates in Downtown, it's not the commuter type. Traffic in Downtown is specific, either business or pleasure, not "rush through".

BTW, they have modified the lanes on Broadway as of late. Potted plants on corner lanes, bike lanes.

Here's some of that construction.


Broadway Streetscape Plan, Road Diet
by STERLINGDAVISPHOTO, on Flickr

And plus, isn't the idea to make these streets more pedestrian friendly? The street car is on goal.

Back in the day....

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Old January 12th, 2015, 01:42 AM   #1469
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This will be a great way to reconnect those points, which are outside of walking distance from the subway stations.
What is "walking distance"?

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Old January 12th, 2015, 01:50 AM   #1470
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In my experience, most of South Park, Fashion and the Historic Core are not feasibly walkable from the subway. Gigantic blocks full of nothing stand in between.
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Old January 12th, 2015, 01:54 AM   #1471
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"gigantic blocks", just my point.
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Old January 12th, 2015, 07:35 AM   #1472
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In my experience, most of South Park, Fashion and the Historic Core are not feasibly walkable from the subway. Gigantic blocks full of nothing stand in between.
Maybe you don't walk very much.

South Park has an Expo and Blue Line stop on Flower and Pico literally one block from LA Live and the Convention center.

The Pershing Square Red and Purple Line stop is literally one block West of Broadway.

You are correct in saying the Fashion District is not walking distance to rail though.
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Old January 12th, 2015, 07:43 AM   #1473
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I guess my main tribulations with walking across downtown from Metro stops have been to the Ace Hotel, the Edison and Cole's/The Varnish... they may not actually be that far from the stations but the walk at night (especially to the Ace from the Blue/Expo) feels interminable with all the empty parking lots and shuttered storefronts.
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Old January 12th, 2015, 06:21 PM   #1474
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You see where the Blue, Red, Purple and Expo lines pass, the street car will connect them to the rest of DT very nicely.

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Old January 12th, 2015, 10:37 PM   #1475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nr23Derek View Post
Trams are so much better than buses, the ride is just so much more enjoyable and because it's always the same on every journey it becomes a very familiar way to travel. I', a storng supporter of trams and a pathological hater of buses.

A tram ROW can be shared with a bus route though, so the existence of a bus line on a road doesn't preclude trams as well.

But seriously, a short loop like this is just stupid. All it will do is prove financially nonviable and prove no-one wants to use the service. LA should build a proper route running from somewhere significant to downtown and out the other side to somewhere else significant. If you can't do that, don't bother.

* Sorry, "tram"=Streetcar" as I'm sure you know. I'm English

Derek
its important to note that there are numerous other options in the area. There are several metro stations that are served by the Red and Purple Line subways as well as the Gold, Blue and Expo lines that all serve the purpose of getting people in and out of downtown LA. Additionally, there is another subway under construction that will connect Union Station and the 7th street metro Station (the two busiest stations in the system and both in Downtown )that will have 3 new stations and serve as a circulator in Downtown. On top of that, there are dozens of bus lines and the Dash Service, which is a downtown specific bus line.

This Tram is being built to provide access to the main points of interest in DT in a easy way. Also, fixed rail lines bring in much more economic development than do bus lines and are easier for tourists to use. As a resident that will have this tram right in front of my apartment, i cant wait.
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Old January 12th, 2015, 10:38 PM   #1476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woonsocket54 View Post
The useless streetcar will doom transit projects for a generation. In a region of the country where transportation funding is subject to the whims of the electorate, why would anyone support a vanity project to put empty streetcars on roads that are shared with drivers/voters?

I hope at the very least that if they go through with this, they allocate enough money to tint the tram windows so the emptiness cannot be glimpsed at from the outside.
huh??? Have you ever been to Downtown LA? in addition to the 60k residents (and quickly growing) there are 400,000 - 500,000 workers and thousands of tourists. It will be anything but empty
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Old January 12th, 2015, 11:01 PM   #1477
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But it's only 3.8 miles long, given the big square bit in the south from the top to the bottom of that loop can't be much more than a mile. Seriously, would you wait 10 mins or so for a tram ride of less than a mile?

Kenni wrote

Quote:
This "loop" would only be the first of a well-connected at-grade "touristy" street car, reminiscent of the old days. No they weren't a Disney imagination, they actually emulate the old Pacific Electric Red Cars of Los Angeles.
You see, that worries me. The old style streetcars LA used to have were no doubt romantic and of the time, but a modern tram is a very different animal. Think sleek, quiet, hi-tech item of transport infrastructure.

Derek
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Old January 12th, 2015, 11:57 PM   #1478
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Originally Posted by nr23Derek View Post
But it's only 3.8 miles long, given the big square bit in the south from the top to the bottom of that loop can't be much more than a mile. Seriously, would you wait 10 mins or so for a tram ride of less than a mile?

Kenni wrote



You see, that worries me. The old style streetcars LA used to have were no doubt romantic and of the time, but a modern tram is a very different animal. Think sleek, quiet, hi-tech item of transport infrastructure.

Derek
That is the force behind it, and some people (like I) would love to see the tram cars emulating the old red ones...why not?

Tho, it's not a shoe-in.

It could be this...







But, it loses a lot in my opinion, that could be Portland for all we know. Because of cost, eventually we will end up with something like that. Unfortunately. They would never do that in San Francisco. LA has an ingrained history with its street cars, why not revive and milk it.

I might even go for something like this.

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Old January 13th, 2015, 12:09 AM   #1479
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START VIDEO AT 1:20

LA's last remaining working Pacific Electric Red Car in the Port of Los Angeles.

(beautiful)

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Old January 13th, 2015, 12:24 AM   #1480
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ya, i hope they go with the older style as well, but i remember reading somewhere that because of ADA requirements, it could be cost prohibitive
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