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Old April 1st, 2015, 05:13 AM   #1601
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Art, is going up on the Expo Line extension to Santa Monica. (Same line as accident)

Here's the art going up at the Downtown Santa Monica station.

Photos: Metro

















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Old April 1st, 2015, 07:56 AM   #1602
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City of the size of LA needs a full metro system for capacity reasons. Actually Manchester mentioned above would have been better off with one as well. Buses are less used in central Paris because the metro network is very dense and distance between stations is less than in London.
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Old April 1st, 2015, 03:58 PM   #1603
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I find the idea of a big metro system in LA interesting. If even possible, it must be a very very special thing to make it possible since there are so many nature things which make it quiet hard. Like earthquakes.
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Old April 1st, 2015, 05:18 PM   #1604
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Los Angeles is one of the biggest metros on World. It started building a good system with the fully underground heavy Red line. Then, it chickened out to light rail and, the horror, the El Monte busway substituting for a proper rail line. Then, they at least started building light rail.

Yet, MTA tries to cheat users by portraying certain BRT lines in the same way as subways or light rail, such as the Orange line.

In fairness, some European cities tried to play that fast-and-loose gimmick as well (mapping BRT as if it were rail, to give the impression they have a large system they they actually have), such as Berlin.
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Old April 1st, 2015, 08:23 PM   #1605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by austrian View Post
I find the idea of a big metro system in LA interesting. If even possible, it must be a very very special thing to make it possible since there are so many nature things which make it quiet hard. Like earthquakes.
Tokyo.
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Old April 1st, 2015, 09:08 PM   #1606
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Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
A major point that is being missed in this discussion is that light rail doesn't meet the need. The Blue Line (Downtown to Long Beach) is at capacity. The Expo Line (Downtown to Santa Monica) will likely be at capacity the day the full route to Santa Monica is opened. Trains can't be made longer because the lengths of station platforms is restricted by the distance between cross streets. Train frequencies are already at about the limit for turn around times at Metro Center. Traffic signal priority is out of the question where the lines converge because just about every light cycle would be disrupted by a train. The relatively low speed and the disruptions from traffic accidents are just more reasons why Los Angeles should have built these lines as metros.
But it hasn't. So where are we going from there? An obvious thing would be speeding up the expansion. I mean, just look at a map. The coverage is still very minimalistic and if one line is overloaded, well, two lines in parallel along (there should be some additional meaningful potential corridors around I guess) where there is nowadays just one, should be a fairly straightforward idea. If it makes sense, this could be also done as a metro. And when it comes to the "metro to the sea" it is what is planned anyway, isn't it? This would merely need some more serious investment and speeding up of the enlargement horizon.

Of course this would not solve the speed issue but it would definitely resolve the capacity issue until the network is really so dense and tightly nit that there is no good way left how to make it even denser. I doub it is easy to reach such a point at all.
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Old April 1st, 2015, 10:10 PM   #1607
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Just because Buffalo and Philly both have similar-looking rolling stock (both bought from Kawasaki in the early 1980s), doesn't mean that they have operating characteristics that are at all similar. Buffalo is almost entirely separated from traffic, while Philadelphia is largely mixed-traffic.

As for the Green Line, well, its the Green Line. It's just sort of been there for as long as anyone can remember.
...
I'm aware of your information: I only made some visual examples to remark that under the LRT label is put together a wide range of systems, varying from “almost metros” to “little more than streetcars”; anyway, in Buffalo, the at grade section is laid in the middle of a pedestrian mall without a lot of physical barrier, so it wasn't exactly separated from traffic, and the reopening to vehicular circulation of Main St. is in progress, so by now it will no longer be separated even from car traffic - source: an article from The Buffalo News (Jan. 23, 2015).

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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
... Where did this statement come from?Certainly not me, even if you allow it to be paraphase!

What part of 'best of both worlds' do you not get? LA's metro light rail has enough segregation to allow speed, capacity and less disruption of other modes, but also enough street running to provide convenience and cheapness.
My apologies: I referred to some statements made before my first post and I took your contribution as a confirmation for my opinions (I even “like” your post), but the way I wrote leads to understand the opposite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
A major point that is being missed in this discussion is that light rail doesn't meet the need. The Blue Line (Downtown to Long Beach) is at capacity. The Expo Line (Downtown to Santa Monica) will likely be at capacity the day the full route to Santa Monica is opened. Trains can't be made longer because the lengths of station platforms is restricted by the distance between cross streets. Train frequencies are already at about the limit for turn around times at Metro Center. Traffic signal priority is out of the question where the lines converge because just about every light cycle would be disrupted by a train. The relatively low speed and the disruptions from traffic accidents are just more reasons why Los Angeles should have built these lines as metros.
I really don't know if there's enough potential transportation demand to justify a full scale metro for one or all the corridors now served by Metro LRT, only a transportation forecasting study could tell us (the urban/metropolitan area size is a rather vague and not decisive parameter), however:
  • a LRT line scoring 80˙000÷85˙000 passengers in an average weekday (~ 3˙800 pax/mi) is surely something, but there are, even in North America, bus and streetcar routes that carry a lot as well, in fairly worse conditions:
    • MTA B46 had over 50˙000 passengers in an average weekday (~ 6˙400 pax/mi) before enhancement project (rigid-body standard buses with almost no reserved lanes),
    • TTC 504 KING have nearly 65˙000 passengers in an average weekday (~ 8˙100 pax/mi) struggling in mixed traffic (single car, both articulated and not, with a little reserved lanes and partial priority);
  • there are four intersections with traffic lights in S Flower St. between W Washington Blvd., where Blue Line and Expo Line converge, and the 11th St. portal: unless they had an extremely long light cycle (more than 90'', the standard max), with the current schedule (a train every 135'' average), at worst less than ⅓ of cycles would be altered by a train.
  • reducing headway to 5' could add 20% capacity, prioritization and traffic regulation could improve both speed and safety, grade separation for some busy intersections could relieve the most critical points: all those measures are far less expensive than built a subway or elevated metro line, but need a strong political willpower, since they affect car freedom;
  • congestion at Metro Center stop will be completely solved after the Regional Connector opening, but I seriously doubt 15 tram/h is the maximum throughput for a terminus;
  • even if Blue Line really reached its maximum capacity, due to local peculiarities I don't see, the other lines are far from this threshold and there's a lot of room for more ridership.
I'm not surprised by objections and resistances from traffic engineers: after thirty years without rail transit, even the historical memory got lost and some things, that elsewhere are possible/common, here can be seen as impossible/unlikely to be. Nevertheless, your statement "Los Angeles should have built these lines as metros" is only a legitimate political opinion, not a technical fact or a rational truth (unless you have some scientific data and projections on which build upon, but in this case I hope you will share them with us, uploading or linking to the source).

PS. If accidents and traffic disruption were a reasonable ground for building a metro system, it would be even more sensible building grade separated intersections at every crossroad and high fences along all the sidewalks, since traffic jams and car-car, car-truck, pedestrian-car accidents are a lot more prone to happen.
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Old April 1st, 2015, 10:11 PM   #1608
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Quote:
Originally Posted by austrian View Post
I find the idea of a big metro system in LA interesting. If even possible, it must be a very very special thing to make it possible since there are so many nature things which make it quiet hard. Like earthquakes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Tokyo.
Especially considering the Red and Purple lines already exist and seem to be working just fine!
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Old April 1st, 2015, 10:32 PM   #1609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Los Angeles is one of the biggest metros on World. It started building a good system with the fully underground heavy Red line. Then, it chickened out to light rail and, the horror, the El Monte busway substituting for a proper rail line. Then, they at least started building light rail.

Yet, MTA tries to cheat users by portraying certain BRT lines in the same way as subways or light rail, such as the Orange line.

In fairness, some European cities tried to play that fast-and-loose gimmick as well (mapping BRT as if it were rail, to give the impression they have a large system they they actually have), such as Berlin.
Why do you think they did that?

I can only think of one factor: $ + Earthquake proof infrastructure.

Distances here are amazing, and it is not just a City system, it is a County system. MTA is administered by LA County.

Quote:
Originally Posted by austrian View Post
I find the idea of a big metro system in LA interesting. If even possible, it must be a very very special thing to make it possible since there are so many nature things which make it quiet hard. Like earthquakes.
Tokyo (All of Japan)
Mexico City
San Francisco
Panama City
Etc.
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Old April 1st, 2015, 11:12 PM   #1610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Los Angeles is one of the biggest metros on World. It started building a good system with the fully underground heavy Red line. Then, it chickened out to light rail and, the horror, the El Monte busway substituting for a proper rail line. Then, they at least started building light rail.

Yet, MTA tries to cheat users by portraying certain BRT lines in the same way as subways or light rail, such as the Orange line.

In fairness, some European cities tried to play that fast-and-loose gimmick as well (mapping BRT as if it were rail, to give the impression they have a large system they they actually have), such as Berlin.
A few things:

The El Monte Busway opened in 1973, well before any of LA Metro Rail's current lines were under construction (or even funded). The Orange Line BRT, which opened in 2005, was originally planned as light rail, but Metro was forced to switch modes after a shortsighted state law forbid the construction of at-grade rail along a portion of the Chandler ROW.

The Red/Purple Line and Blue Line were constructed simultaneously by separate agencies (SCRTD and RCC, respectively). The Blue Line opened in 1990, followed by the first segment of the Red Line in 1993.

Although earlier plans from the 1920s and onward called for a fully grade-separated system, the current Metro Rail network was always envisioned as consisting primarily of light rail, with heavy rail reserved only for the most heavily used corridors (Wilshire, Vermont, Hollywood, Whittier).
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Old April 1st, 2015, 11:16 PM   #1611
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At least they're finally expanding the Subway lines now.
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Old April 2nd, 2015, 07:49 PM   #1612
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Originally Posted by Yak79 View Post
My apologies: I referred to some statements made before my first post and I took your contribution as a confirmation for my opinions (I even “like” your post), but the way I wrote leads to understand the opposite.
No worries.
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Old April 2nd, 2015, 09:51 PM   #1613
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It was posted on FB by a worker on "Fans of Los Angeles Metro rail".
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hello...29341747110269

Big step forward.........

Quote:
The Expo Light Rail Line extension from Culver City to Santa Monica is scheduled to start train testing activities the week of April 6, 2015 and continue for several months. Initially the trains will be pulled along the rail corridor, and then operated on their own power. Testing will first take place in the eastern portion of the project and will later proceed across the entire alignment. The testing activity will test train clearances, the Overhead Catenary System which powers the trains, the crossing gates and traffic signals, and all related systems before the project is turned over to Metro for pre-revenue operations.


What: Train Testing Activities

When: Starting the week of April 6, 2015

Where Along the light rail alignment between Venice Boulevard and Military Avenue

Hours: Between 8:00 a.m. and 5:00 p.m., Monday - Friday

What to Expect:

Preliminary testing activities will take place intermittently for approximately 3 weeks before the crossing gates are activated. During this time, testing may result in brief interruptions of street traffic as trains cross the intersections assisted by flaggers.
Once the crossing gates are operational, testing will continue on a more regular schedule.
The train’s audible devices may be used during testing activities.
Throughout the testing period, safety personnel will be available at the crossings to assist the public.
As testing proceeds along the alignment, supplemental notices will be issued.

Safety Tips:

Please obey all warning signs and traffic signals when crossing the tracks.
Always look both ways before crossing any street.
Never walk on railroad tracks.
Watch for trains from both directions.
Use the crosswalks.
Do not jaywalk across the tracks.

(Testing schedules are dynamic, and updated information will be provided as necessary)

Military Ave looking South Temp Sign Warning of test Trains at Crossing
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 07:38 AM   #1614
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http://urbanize.la/post/metro-propos...ion-rail-lines

Metro is considering swapping out the color names for a letter-based system.

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Old April 3rd, 2015, 02:21 PM   #1615
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No, adding letters to the color based system.
It makes sense, since this is what they do pretty much all over the world because it's been proven effective. I don't get why they skipped F, H, I, J though, and gave the BRT lines letters. Those should be given numbers 1 and 2 (like all other bus routes having numbers I presume)

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Old April 3rd, 2015, 04:14 PM   #1616
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It doesn't make much sense - the colours have monosyllabic names (save purple, silver and orange) and there's not weird or clashing colours and so shouldn't be a colorblindness problem.

Plus the missing letters is stupid (perhaps F is for Expo until it merges with Gold? I looks too much like a 1, but H makes no sense...)
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 05:23 PM   #1617
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Well, the Blue Line is the 801 train, so they should just go with that. Same for Orange Line (901) and Silver Line (910).
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 06:19 PM   #1618
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H and I weren't used because they are used as symbols for "Hospital," and "Information."

There actually have been issues with the map for colorblind people, particularly regarding the Expo Line. That's why Metro added the "E," to the symbol about six months after the line opened.
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 06:29 PM   #1619
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It makes sense to adopt letter/numbers, even if colors are still used. Several cities in the World changed for letters for reasons like:
- being more app- and digital-friendly in general
- being easy to show on interactive maps
- not requiring new iterations with each expansion of the system
- easier for foreigners
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 08:47 PM   #1620
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Originally Posted by blackcat23 View Post
http://urbanize.la/post/metro-propos...ion-rail-lines

Metro is considering swapping out the color names for a letter-based system.

Logical next step, as the system grows, and for the mentioned reasons. A large number of its patrons are Hispanics, this will simplify everything.
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