daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old April 5th, 2015, 02:44 AM   #1641
Slartibartfas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vedunia
Posts: 11,599
Likes (Received): 5963

Yeah, circles vs squares, but both have single letter coding. Yes, you can differentiate them if you look carefully. But the aim clearly is to put them on one level, hence equally thick lines. Its not a big deal, as these are real BRT lines and not glorified buslines after all (the grey line has slower central part but that is also marked on the map)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarshallKnight View Post
Obviously, Spanish-speakers who live here have learned the colored line names quickly and with little trouble. I'd expect the same of German-, Italian-, or French-speakers as well. But what about speakers of languages with non-Latin alphabets? "Making it out by the spelling" doesn't work for them. If I showed you ten four-to-six letter words in, Arabic or Greek or Hindi, would you be able to keep them straight in your head as you dashed around the Metro? I know I wouldn't.
Don't get me wrong. I actually think it makes sense to change to a latter code system, even though my personal preferences are generally for number based systems or simple letter-number codes (systemwide, integrating all rail, bus and all the other PT lines). Exchanging the colours for such a coding makes sense also for locals as colours are really only handy for a small number of different lines.

In regards to your arguments of guests from non-latin script spheres, numbers would be better than latin letters btw. I would expect that the Arabic numbers are more widely understood than Latin letters. So we do agree on this I guess.
__________________
"Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a Titanic success of it.”
Boris Johnson, Foreign Secretary, UK

Last edited by Slartibartfas; April 5th, 2015 at 02:56 AM.
Slartibartfas no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old April 5th, 2015, 05:13 AM   #1642
ajw373
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,249
Likes (Received): 48

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarshallKnight View Post
But a single letter boils down to a basic and easily distinguishable symbol in a way that full words do not, removing an unnecessary complication. Numbers would be even better, because the arabic numerals are essentially universal now, but of course that would add a layer of confusion with the existing numbered buses.
So they have learnt a single letter or number how does someone then know which platform to get and how then do they know where to get off? You need to know both of these to be able use the system.

Simple answer is people learn. They may not know what the word means, they may not be able even speak English, but they do associate words with where they need to go and numbers doesn't make it any easier.

Case in point, London Underground. No numbers, no line colours, but used by people from all over the world on a daily basis.
ajw373 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 5th, 2015, 01:05 PM   #1643
starrwulfe
ご乗車頂いてありがとうございます。
 
starrwulfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Yokohama
Posts: 776
Likes (Received): 468

As a one-time Angelino during my teen years (and getting to ride on the Blue, Red, and Green lines on their opening days) I think we're missing the point in some of this.

Freeways have both a number and formal name that everyone knows and uses. 405 Fwy/San Diego Fwy and 10 Fwy/Santa Monica Fwy or San Bernardo Fwy for example. Out of towners usually use the former while hometowners use the latter mostly.

How about the Taipei MRT which has just added numbers to it's already color coded as and named lines. The Songshan-Xindian Line is now the 3⃣ Line and Wenhu Line gets the 5⃣ moniker. Now I don't have to just say “blue or brown” when asking directions (tough when you don't know how to say that in Mandarin)

And of course here in Japan where most railways numbered and lettered their routes and stations. Japanese and lifers like me don't say [TY01] when we mean “Shibuya station on the Tokyu Toyoko line” but the tourists around here sure do. Its one way to make sense out of the rail network that helps those not used to it.

… ain't that the point though? ✌
starrwulfe no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 5th, 2015, 01:23 PM   #1644
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21241

When will a plan to improve Metrolink come around? I read Metrolink is in so much of a crisis it even sold some trains to Caltrain!
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 5th, 2015, 09:50 PM   #1645
Woonsocket54
PC LOAD LETTER
 
Woonsocket54's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: East Millinocket, Maine
Posts: 5,644
Likes (Received): 5758

Quote:
Originally Posted by starrwulfe View Post
Freeways have both a number and formal name that everyone knows and uses. 405 Fwy/San Diego Fwy and 10 Fwy/Santa Monica Fwy or San Bernardo Fwy for example. Out of towners usually use the former while hometowners use the latter mostly.
I think you inversed that inadvertently. The locals use the numbers; the tourists use the names.
Woonsocket54 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 5th, 2015, 10:48 PM   #1646
Kenni
Admin
 
Kenni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: LATAM
Posts: 27,313

Coming from a local, we use the numbers here most of all. The Glenn Anderson Freeway/Century Freeway.....ok, but we call it the 105.

More notorious ones see their names more popularized, The Hollywood Freeway (101), which actually that's not its proper name, and that's the problem, they change names as they pass different cities. So we stick to the number, which doesn't change.

The 101's name in LA is "El Camino Real", (The Royal Road) as it follows roughly the original Spanish trail. You will see these bells on the side of the freeway every so mile.
Kenni no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2015, 12:50 AM   #1647
I(L)WTC
Cono Sur ♥
 
I(L)WTC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Buenos Aires / Copenhague
Posts: 11,997
Likes (Received): 8760

Quote:
Originally Posted by diablo234 View Post
I always thought that more cities transit systems should adopt a letter/number based system for their rail lines similar to what Denver, NYC, or Buenos Aires use. It's a lot more efficient than using London's system set up (for example the Waterloo Line or Northern Line) which discriminates against anyone who isn't familiar with English.
The suburban rail of Buenos Aires it's based in the british system. Roca Line, San Martin line, etc. and the subways A B C D E H and the New York Suburban rail too.
__________________
"A las 12 me convierto en calabaza" - Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner- .

GRIDO Emblema de la decada ganada


I(L)WTC liked this post
I(L)WTC no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2015, 01:56 AM   #1648
Fortyfiver
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Broward County, FL
Posts: 35
Likes (Received): 11

But, ajw373, the London Underground does have line colors, which have been used on maps and in the stations for many decades, certainly since Harry Beck's design of 1931. Every user learns very quickly that the Central line is red, the Bakerloo is brown, the Metropolitan purple, and the Circle is yellow, etc. The color/line association becomes automatic - no need for numbers, and non-English speakers can, if they wish, easily disregard the line names.
__________________
Son of Scotland, citizen of the world.
Fortyfiver no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2015, 02:05 AM   #1649
starrwulfe
ご乗車頂いてありがとうございます。
 
starrwulfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Yokohama
Posts: 776
Likes (Received): 468

Well maybe it depends on age and locality. I never hear my uncle say "10 freeway” for the Santa Monica Fwy, but always says 405 and 91 for those.
I graduated high school the year the 105 opened and remember the foolishness that was the naming rights discussion of that road.

The point I was trying to make is that having more options to point out a route on the map could only help. However the same discussion could be had in Portland, Boston, and even Dallas now, where there are colors for the routes on the map but still have diverging and short-lining routes.
starrwulfe no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2015, 02:09 AM   #1650
Kenni
Admin
 
Kenni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: LATAM
Posts: 27,313

Quote:
Originally Posted by starrwulfe View Post
Well maybe it depends on age and locality. I never hear my uncle say "10 freeway” for the Santa Monica Fwy, but always says 405 and 91 for those.
I graduated high school the year the 105 opened and remember the foolishness that was the naming rights discussion of that road.

The point I was trying to make is that having more options to point out a route on the map could only help. However the same discussion could be had in Portland, Boston, and even Dallas now, where there are colors for the routes on the map but still have diverging and short-lining routes.
Yeah, like I said, the most prominent ones like the Santa Monica are more "famous". But like I said, the problem is that their names change.

This color thing isn't an issue when a system is very small, like LA's was, and it's natural that they migrate to a color/letter format, which I think we can all agree is much better.

(I graduated in 1995 too, and remember the 105's construction, I currently live near it since 1996)
Kenni no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2015, 06:26 AM   #1651
ajw373
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,249
Likes (Received): 48

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortyfiver View Post
But, ajw373, the London Underground does have line colors, which have been used on maps and in the stations for many decades, certainly since Harry Beck's design of 1931. Every user learns very quickly that the Central line is red, the Bakerloo is brown, the Metropolitan purple, and the Circle is yellow, etc. The color/line association becomes automatic - no need for numbers, and non-English speakers can, if they wish, easily disregard the line names.
No body ever refers to the colours, people refer to the line by name. The colour only really helps in the station with multiple lines when you are trying to find the platform. Once on there you still need to know the direction and/or station names to know where you are going, especially on the lines that have multiple branches.

Imagine jumping on a 'red line' training wanting to go to Gants Hill. What you really need to know is you need an east bound central line train that goes to Hainaunt or Newbury Park. No good getting on an Epping train, or a west bound train is there?
ajw373 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2015, 11:47 AM   #1652
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,557

and London very clearly provides the information you need to make that decision.

You have to be incredibly stupid to get lost on the tube.
sotonsi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2015, 12:16 PM   #1653
ajw373
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,249
Likes (Received): 48

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
and London very clearly provides the information you need to make that decision.

You have to be incredibly stupid to get lost on the tube.
Exactly, no need for line numbers or letters. The line name and direction suffices.

Though I do think the multiple branches do make it hard for some if your not familiar with the layout of the line.

Another example is Moscow, although they use numbers for the lines, you still need to be able 'read' cyrillic to get on the right train and get off at the right station. I say read, because you don't need to know what it says, just match the letters for the direction you need to go and the station to get off.

NB been about 5 years since I last got the metro in Moscow so maybe by now the stations have Anglicised station names on their signage.
ajw373 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2015, 01:53 PM   #1654
Falubaz
Registered User
 
Falubaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Zielona Gora, Polska
Posts: 14,799
Likes (Received): 2940

You mean 'latinised'? Since the alphabet is latin.
__________________
Zielona Góra - Ziemia Lubuska

₪₪₪Zielona Góra moim okiem₪₪₪ Zielonogórskie autobusy₪₪₪Port Lotniczy ZIElona Góra₪₪₪ BRT₪₪₪ścieżki rowerowe w ZG
₪₪₪[Świat] „Przebłyski pamięci”₪₪₪Moja Ameryka - nie tylko Stany
Falubaz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2015, 04:53 PM   #1655
MrAronymous
Registered User
 
MrAronymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,981
Likes (Received): 6083

^They have.
MrAronymous no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2015, 05:50 PM   #1656
ajw373
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,249
Likes (Received): 48

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
You mean 'latinised'? Since the alphabet is latin.
Maybe, despite be born in an English speaking country the finer points of the language were never my forte.

But whilst the actual characters are indeed of Latin origin, I would still argue that the station names are Anglicised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAronymous View Post
^They have.
Interesting. Last time I was there the maps showed the names in 'English', but the station signs and the station list shown on the walls of the platforms were still very much Cyrillic only.
ajw373 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2015, 05:56 PM   #1657
Woonsocket54
PC LOAD LETTER
 
Woonsocket54's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: East Millinocket, Maine
Posts: 5,644
Likes (Received): 5758

It is indeed true that Moscow's metro stations were transliterated English-style, which is the international standard. German transliteration of Russian names does not resemble English transliteration - both would be deemed "latinization", however.
Woonsocket54 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 7th, 2015, 05:51 AM   #1658
Kenni
Admin
 
Kenni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: LATAM
Posts: 27,313

From the Mayor of LA.

"We made history on the Westside today with the beginning of clearance testing for the Expo Line. This marks the first time a train has run west of Culver City. By next year, Angelenos will be able to ride the train from DTLA to Santa Monica and back."



__________________

mrsmartman, redspork02 liked this post
Kenni no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 7th, 2015, 06:27 AM   #1659
CCs77
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,116
Likes (Received): 2445

I think that whether is it easier or not having a letter (or numbered) naming system, instead of colors, for not english speaking people is secondary. You can discuss for ever that issue, but I don't think that is the big deal.

I indeed think that change is a good idea, but not because of the comprehension for not english speakers thing, but mainly because it is a good tool to the neccesary rebranding of the system when the regional connector is open in 2020.

When the Regional Connector is open, it won't just add a new line but will change the whole system as it works until then. People in Pasadena, used to be in the "gold" line, will overnight pass to the "blue" line, with people in the "expo" line in Santa Monica or Culver City passing to the gold. So, I think it would be better to rebrand the whole thing and begin to call it with letters or numbers instead of colors. The Regional Connector will add a drastic change in the system, so I think it is a good oportunity to introduce a drastic rebranding as well.

That said, I think it would be a huge mistake doing that "NOW" (as the Metro presentation states) It should be done the day the regional connector opens. It makes no sense, and a waste of money, to make such a change now, just to necessarily change it again in just a few years.

The letter or number system, will also make it easier other changes shown in the map, such as the shared section of the present green line, that will be shared with the Crenshaw "K" line and a future pink "L" line

By the way, I think it may would be better if they use numbers for rail and letters for busway lines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcat23 View Post
http://urbanize.la/post/metro-propos...ion-rail-lines

Metro is considering swapping out the color names for a letter-based system.

__________________
CCs77 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 8th, 2015, 03:28 AM   #1660
Kenni
Admin
 
Kenni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: LATAM
Posts: 27,313

I like the opposite, letters for rail and numbers for bus lines.
Kenni no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
los angeles

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium