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Old October 25th, 2015, 02:16 AM   #1941
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Originally Posted by Dan78 View Post
I have to wonder about the wisdom of some of these mode choices that LA is making. Some of these distances would be better suited to commuter rail (or something like France's RER or Germany's S-Bahn) than light rail. I don't see the practicality of one single train running the entire length of the line in the future from Montclair to Long Beach. For one thing, it will likely shatter the record for the longest light rail line in the world—and create major operational challenge to keep the train on time.
Guys, NO ONE is going to be traveling from end to end on this line. The new extension will be a feeder to Pasadena's business center and the from the new terminus to Downtown LA will be 50 min. From the other end, most patrons will be going to Downtown LA as well or at the most to Pasadena
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Old October 25th, 2015, 02:59 AM   #1942
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Azusa-to-Long Beach is similar in distance to Fremont-to-San Francisco. Many people do make the latter commute, but BART is a metro. If the Gold and Blue lines had been built as metros rather than light rail, Azusa-to-Long Beach might be a reasonable commute. The issue isn't just speed, but also capacity. Building trunk lines as light rail in a city as large as Los Angeles was purely the result of inadequate funding.
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Old October 25th, 2015, 03:35 AM   #1943
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Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan View Post
Guys, NO ONE is going to be traveling from end to end on this line. The new extension will be a feeder to Pasadena's business center and the from the new terminus to Downtown LA will be 50 min. From the other end, most patrons will be going to Downtown LA as well or at the most to Pasadena
But if there just going to Downtown LA , wouldn't beefing up Metrolinks be a better investment?
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Old October 26th, 2015, 12:25 PM   #1944
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From Global Rail News:

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http://www.globalrailnews.com/2015/1...ine-extension/

Metro Rail announces opening date for Gold Line extension
26 OCT, 2015



Trains will begin revenue service on Los Angeles’ Metro Gold Line Foothill Extension from March 5 next year, it has been announced.

Testing is now in full swing along the route, which will extend the Metro Gold Line from the current Sierra Madre Villa station terminus 20 kilometres east to Azusa.

Major construction works were completed on the $1 billion project in September 2015 and the line, which is forecast to carry 13,600 passengers every day, has now been formally handed over to Metro

...
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Old October 27th, 2015, 12:27 AM   #1945
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Azusa-to-Long Beach is similar in distance to Fremont-to-San Francisco. Many people do make the latter commute, but BART is a metro. If the Gold and Blue lines had been built as metros rather than light rail, Azusa-to-Long Beach might be a reasonable commute. The issue isn't just speed, but also capacity. Building trunk lines as light rail in a city as large as Los Angeles was purely the result of inadequate funding.
but there is very minimal, if any need, for someone from azusa to go to Long beach on a daily basis
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Old October 27th, 2015, 12:28 AM   #1946
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But if there just going to Downtown LA , wouldn't beefing up Metrolinks be a better investment?
i think both are necessary. There will be a fair amount of travel between the cities in the San Gabriel valley, so i think this line has its merits, but if it was a daily commute for someone along the metrolink lines, then i would opt for metrolink
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Old October 27th, 2015, 12:31 AM   #1947
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Also, please remember that this line was included purely for politics. It would probably rank 10 - 15 in the order of importance for LA area light right / heavy rail lines, but to get the necessary 66.7% of the vote throughout the county for Measure R (which included many many improvements throughout LA county for rail and highway and pedestrians) we had to throw bones to different areas. Ideally, we would have put all the money towards an HRT line from Van nuys to UCLA to Santa Monica to LAX, a purple line extension to the ocean, a HRT from union station through echo park and silver lake to glendale and an HRT from LAX to downtown LA, but that would have alienated more than half of the county voters.
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Old October 27th, 2015, 12:47 AM   #1948
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We have neglected the Valley way too long. The bulk of population is too important there...we have to give the Valley rail.
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Old October 27th, 2015, 01:03 AM   #1949
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Hey guys. All the furor over the Gold Extension, the upcoming opening of the Expo Phase II, and the growing public awareness of next year's likely tax measure have gotten me thinking and re-thinking my straw-man Metro map.

As the fate of some of Metro's long-term projects becomes clearer (and as I've learned more about the technicals and logic behind the way the Metro system operates), I've adjusted a few things from the last time around...

For instance, although I would much rather see the Sepulveda Subway built as HRT, the early indications seem to call for LRT, so that the East Valley corridor can run continuously through from Van Nuys to the West Side and LAX without a transfer (the logic being that, presumably, many of those riders will already have transferred from the Sylmar or Chatsworth Metrolink.) So I merged that with the Green Line LAX/north extension...

Which led me to an interesting realization. Taking my cue from Pesto's earlier comment about Subways and destinations, it occurred to me: Hollywood aside, what is LA's most valued destination? The coastline. So rather than terminating the Purple Line in Santa Monica, why not wrap it along the entire shore between DTSM, Venice, Playa Vista and LAX (along a similar route to the long-since-forgotten Green Line "North Coast Extension.") That way, you've got rapid, transfer-less service between the airport and all of the most important business, residential, retail and nightlife hubs on the far west side.

Most of the rest is pretty self-explanatory. Thick lines = HRT, skinny lines = LRT. I blew up Central LA so it's legible, much like the NY MTA map handles Manhattan... and really, the area between DTLA and LAX, and especially the part bounded by Hollywood and Wilshire Blvds is our Manhattan. Also (this kind of speaks to LASportsFan's point above), many of the ultra-long lines could naturally be split in two, with termini at LAX, Union, etc. But as with the future Gold and especially Blue Lines, Metro has apparently adopted the logic that running a single line through a hub is more efficient than stopping and turning their trains around.

And even then, there aren't enough colors in the freaking rainbow to break them up even further.

Obviously much of this is the stuff of pure fantasy -- I'm not remotely saying we SHOULD have two LRT lines running from the North SFV to Santa Ana; or that there's any chance the Rose Bowl or Hollywood Bowl would sign off on rail stations that would eat into their lucrative parking situations. Rather I'm just illustrating where ROWs, areas of interest, and a natural fit with the existing and currently-planned Metro system all converge.

Anyway, hope you guys enjoy this little thought experiment.

Edit: Also worth noting, I haven't suggested any changes to the existing Metrolink system, primarily because I am so unfamiliar with it, but I would love to hear thoughts on the way you guys think it should be expanded.

Master_v2_w_Metrolink_and_Labels by Marshall Knight, on Flickr
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Old October 27th, 2015, 09:06 AM   #1950
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Well, since we've gone on the subject of fantasy maps, I might as well share my "map" (really diagram) of the possible future, based off of the most recent and probably final Straw Man :/

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Old October 27th, 2015, 09:04 PM   #1951
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humdoodee, your image is broken
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Old October 27th, 2015, 10:12 PM   #1952
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I can it just fine... Maybe you have an outdated plugin on your browser?
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Old October 27th, 2015, 10:54 PM   #1953
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I think breaking up those very long lines is a terrible idea, unless really necessary for keeping the frequency or timetable requirements. Why? Because it forces additional transfer onto a lot of people and it is the number of transfers which have to be kept at an absolute minimum if a network is to be efficient.
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Old October 27th, 2015, 10:54 PM   #1954
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Works for me now. Just was broken before.
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Old October 27th, 2015, 11:32 PM   #1955
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
I think breaking up those very long lines is a terrible idea, unless really necessary for keeping the frequency or timetable requirements. Why? Because it forces additional transfer onto a lot of people and it is the number of transfers which have to be kept at an absolute minimum if a network is to be efficient.
Yeah that's generally my thought as well -- I wasn't advocating for breaking up the long lines, but wanted to remind others that it could be done if there's a good reason for it. I mean, why would it make sense to have single-seat rides from Azusa to Union, but not from Chinatown to City Hall? You want the busiest lines to run through the hubs, not just to them.

Hopefully the question of keeping the trains on time along the Blue and Gold will encourage more grade separation for future lines (or at least make signal priority for surface crossings the norm.)

Last edited by MarshallKnight; October 27th, 2015 at 11:39 PM.
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Old October 28th, 2015, 11:38 AM   #1956
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but there is very minimal, if any need, for someone from azusa to go to Long beach on a daily basis
So the objective is to keep it that way by building a slow transit line?
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Old October 28th, 2015, 05:47 PM   #1957
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I have to wonder about the wisdom of some of these mode choices that LA is making. Some of these distances would be better suited to commuter rail (or something like France's RER or Germany's S-Bahn) than light rail. I don't see the practicality of one single train running the entire length of the line in the future from Montclair to Long Beach. For one thing, it will likely shatter the record for the longest light rail line in the world—and create major operational challenge to keep the train on time.

The key there is the regional connector. Today there are three lines that goes to four different terminus away from Downtown, but they just get the fringes of Downtown, the patrons of those lines may have to make one or even two transfers to reach most places of the Downtown area. The regional connector will traverse Downtown, allowing people from all four terminus to reach more parts of it without the needing of transfers.

For example one person coming from Pasadena and going to Pico Station must have to transfer twice, with the regional connector will access it directly. It will also facilitate (for giving a random example) a trip from Pasadena to Slauson, a few stations south of downtown on the blue line, in a one seat ride. Or going from Pasadena to the USC with just one transfer (now requiring two for that trip)

So, as you see, it is not as much as connecting the ends of the lines (a trip that would be rarely done) but to better connect the places between the terminus on the four legs radiating from Downtown, either to better reach places on downtown itself or to go between places in two different legs, going through downtown, with less or no transfers. You mentioned RER in Paris, this would be like the "RERization" of the LA light rail system, like a commuter light rail.

And with the regional connector in place it also would be easier to convert the three lines in just two. It would be a much bigger operational challenge to run four different lines in the regional connector than just two, albeit those two lines are very long ones.
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Old October 29th, 2015, 01:14 AM   #1958
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So the objective is to keep it that way by building a slow transit line?
There will never be any demand to go from long beach to azusa..
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Old October 29th, 2015, 03:36 AM   #1959
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There will never be any demand to go from long beach to azusa..
Maybe not, but there will be plenty of demand to go from Watts to Pasadena, or Azusa to Bunker Hill, or Long Beach to Union Station. Rail transit lines aren't just meant to benefit their endpoints, but rather connect all of the areas between them. Take a look at the most successful transit systems, and you probably won't be finding as many people taking lines from end-to-end as those taking trips somehow involving the middle or transfers.

Was the inclusion of the Gold Line extension a largely political everyone-gets-a-piece project to save the rest? Sure, that's how politics works whether we like it or not. But rail lines do far more than just connect their endpoints.
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Old October 29th, 2015, 05:11 AM   #1960
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There will never be any demand to go from long beach to azusa..
Not even for the Anaheim, Azusa, and Cucamonga Sewing Circle, Book Review and Timing Association and their annual beach picnics?
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