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Old October 9th, 2009, 07:12 PM   #3361
snowman159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
So get a different job. I would.

I just don't understand people who willingly spend that much time in traffic. I did it for a few months cause I lived in Zeeland and I had a job in the Hague. It was terrible, I felt like I was wasting my life.

So I moved.
There are innumerable reasons that influence people in making that decision. Kids, family, school districts, living costs, lifestyle, friends, just to name a few. Not everyone has the same needs and the same priorities. Life is full of trade-offs and unless you're extremely rich, you can't have everything. If someone chooses to commute, short or long distance, they probably don't do it because they enjoy sitting in traffic (and neither because they are idiots - which you seem to be implying)

A little more open-mindedness wouldn't hurt!
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Old October 10th, 2009, 12:54 AM   #3362
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So get a different job. I would.
Yeah, fortunately it's so easy to get a new job in these times...

Wake up.
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Old October 10th, 2009, 10:37 AM   #3363
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A2 Eindhoven bypass

Motorway A2 from Eindhoven North till Eindhoven South will be widened from 2X3 to at least 4x2.
Local traffic will be separated from A2 motorway by an N2 expressway.
Photos taken 1st October 2009 from the Northern section of A2 at Eindhoven.


Map A2 and A58 Eindhoven.
[IMG]http://i36.************/29xuq7p.png[/IMG]

Junction Ekkersweijer A2 X A58. A2 goes from bottom to the right.
[IMG]http://i34.************/nxuefn.jpg[/IMG]

Junction Batadorp A2 X A58 in southern direction
[IMG]http://i35.************/5jzaf6.jpg[/IMG]

Detail junction Batadorp A2 X A58 in southern direction. Note that there are reservations for 4X4 in this section (16 lanes). Bottom and top lanes are N2 expressway, other lanes are A2 motorway.
[IMG]http://i37.************/2irap7b.jpg[/IMG]

A2 junction Batadorp to exit Eindhoven-Airport
[IMG]http://i35.************/2bz14n.jpg[/IMG]
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Old October 10th, 2009, 11:34 AM   #3364
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Nice photos I assume that you were on a flight to Eindhoven?
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Old October 10th, 2009, 11:48 AM   #3365
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The A2 near Eindhoven is now a tie with the widest freeway in the Netherlands (A16). Unfortunately, it's temporary. I believe the final layout will be reduced to 10 lanes.
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Old October 10th, 2009, 04:52 PM   #3366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The A2 near Eindhoven is now a tie with the widest freeway in the Netherlands (A16). Unfortunately, it's temporary. I believe the final layout will be reduced to 10 lanes.
Why would they reduce the number of lanes? Doesn't it make more sense to leave them open once they're there, rather than waiting for traffic volumes to increase and then rebuilding those extra lanes?
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Old October 10th, 2009, 04:54 PM   #3367
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The EIA only allowed for 8 - 10 lanes (4x2) and 2+3+3+2...

Increasing capacity is not-done according to the environmentalists. Imagine, the idea of a good freeway! It should be jammed all day so people will go less with their cars (they think).

However, 8 lanes will do for now. Eindhoven is not Los Angeles or São Paulo. It wasn't until the 1990's that the A2 was widened from 4 to 6 lanes. I would think it would be better to widen it to 10 lanes now at least. I think it's stupid to design the express lanes with 2x2 lanes only.

However, the local lanes will not receive motorway status, but they will be a national road (N2) with 2x2 lanes and without shoulders and a speed limit of 80 km/h. I think it's quite a waste to do this kind of expansion costing over a billion euros for the end result as planned.

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; October 10th, 2009 at 05:01 PM.
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Old October 11th, 2009, 02:01 AM   #3368
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I hear about people driving 2.5 hours for 30 - 40 kms every day around Utrecht (as was today). (some guy I know works in the UMC (Utrecht medical center) in Utrecht always has colleagues coming hours late)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Increasing capacity is not-done according to the environmentalists. Imagine, the idea of a good freeway! It should be jammed all day so people will go less with their cars (they think).
If people take hours for 30 km, then environmentalists are not totally wrong...

The UMC... http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...38495&t=k&z=15
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Old October 11th, 2009, 02:13 AM   #3369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
If people take hours for 30 km, then environmentalists are not totally wrong...
They are not even wrong! They are responsible for the lack of good infrastructure.
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Old October 11th, 2009, 02:31 AM   #3370
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If the need arise for 12 lane (long) motorways, and even them they are often jamemd, yes, there is something wrong...
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Old October 11th, 2009, 10:10 AM   #3371
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It's just not possible to get people to commute using PT, but environmentalists just don't want to accept that. When most people commute by car in a tiny country with over 16 million inhabitants the motorways need to be wide. They aren't (thanks to environmentalists and NIMBY's), so it's often congested. IMO the best we can do is invest in motorways and electrical cars instead of useless new railway lines that have cost way too much money. They built a bloody 8 km long HSR tunnel to protect the wide view in the Green Heart. Thanks to who? Environmentalists and NIMBY's. By the way, the Dutch nature is nothing. It seems like every piece of forest has become a protected area. Thanks to who? Yes, the environmentalists. Of course, some pieces of forest in a tiny busy country is good, but it shouldn't stop vital infrastructure projects.
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Old October 11th, 2009, 11:31 AM   #3372
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
If the need arise for 12 lane (long) motorways, and even them they are often jamemd, yes, there is something wrong...
You sound like an environmentalist yourself... Nobody's talking about 12 lane motorways here, even less about them being jammed. The first task would be to widen those aged 4 lane motorways to 6 or 8 lanes within the Randstad.

There's a backlog of 25 years in road widening. The current motorway network is suited for a population of 13 - 14 million. Yet we have 16.5 million and growing towards 17.5 million.

We can't afford ourselves such a bad road system. Note that there is no alternative to the motorway, no local roads, no national roads, and no reasonable alternate in public transport too.

Note that our public transport is already very complex and serves every town in the Netherlands. Not twice a day, but every hour or even more, also in rural areas. Also; our PT is very busy with absolutely no capacity for even a marginal amount of drivers. Trains travel with the frequency of a subway in some areas, and you're still being transported like cattle.
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Old October 11th, 2009, 12:28 PM   #3373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
You sound like an environmentalist yourself...
No I'm not...I think that exceeding in both direction is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timon91 View Post
When most people commute by car in a tiny country with over 16 million inhabitants the motorways need to be wide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Note that our public transport is already very complex and serves every town in the Netherlands. Not twice a day, but every hour or even more, also in rural areas. Also; our PT is very busy with absolutely no capacity for even a marginal amount of drivers. Trains travel with the frequency of a subway in some areas, and you're still being transported like cattle.
The solution is then improving public transport. It uses less space and in high density regions it is more efficient. As commuters often are alone in their car they use a lot of space for few people. A lane can carry 2.200 vehicles/hour, then 3 lanes carry 8.000 people (at 1.2 people per vehicle). A railway with trains with 1.100 seats each running every 5 minutes can transport 13.200 people per hour in one third of space.

This doesn't mean that road have to be neglected (the famous second Coen Tunnel and other projects solving some bottlenecks IMHO are ok) but that instead of enlarge a 2x3 motorway to 10 lanes it is better to try improving public transport.

About your HSL line Amsterdam-Rotterdam-Belgium: I have read that trains using it (also the IC, not only Thalys) will require a supplement and reservation for places. It isn't a good idea to attract passengers.

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Of course, some pieces of forest in a tiny busy country is good, but it shouldn't stop vital infrastructure projects.
I agree 100%...also about the Groene Hart and other more or less useless tunnels (they are not only in The Netherlands).
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Old October 11th, 2009, 12:33 PM   #3374
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The Netherlands is NOT dense. Yes, on a country's average, but not urban, because our urban areas are spread out into hundreds of non-continuous towns and cities.

They are improving PT for over 20 years now, favoring it over roads. And what have we reached? Nothing, traffic congestion went sky-high, and PT is artificially filled with students by introducing free public transport for them. PT is not efficient in the Netherlands, and never will be for the majority of the commuting relations.
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Old October 11th, 2009, 12:34 PM   #3375
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
About your HSL line Amsterdam-Rotterdam-Belgium: I have read that trains using it (also the IC, not only Thalys) will require a supplement and reservation for places. It isn't a good idea to attract passengers.
That's right. The supplement for a one-way ticket Amsterdam-Rotterdam is €7,40! That means that the full price for a one-way ticket is higher then €20. I hope that there won't be as many passengers as they expect, so they lower the supplement prices. A reservation isn't obligatory, by the way.
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Old October 11th, 2009, 01:01 PM   #3376
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
They are improving PT for over 20 years now, favoring it over roads. And what have we reached? Nothing, traffic congestion went sky-high.
You said both that trains are very well used and passengers don't find seats, and travel standing also for "long" trips, and that roads are always jammed. Improving PT is nearly always the best solution in situations like this. Nearly all tramways and metro lines built in the world in the last 30 years carry more passenger than the number predicted before their construction, and always attract new passangers that previously used their car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
And PT is artificially filled with students by introducing free public transport for them.
If students are encouraged to use PT, they will use less their cars, so reducing traffic. This isn't a bad idea...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timon91 View Post
That's right. The supplement for a one-way ticket Amsterdam-Rotterdam is €7,40! That means that the full price for a one-way ticket is higher then €20. I hope that there won't be as many passengers as they expect, so they lower the supplement prices. A reservation isn't obligatory, by the way.
HSL should not be used only to shorten travel times, but mainly to increase capacity.

The space freed from Rotterdam-Amsterdam passenger should be used to increase trains stopping at, say, Den Haag/Leiden and Gouda/Utrecht. But if prices are too high this doesn't happen. The price between Milano and Bologna via the new HSL is 37 € for 1h05 of travel time by high speed train, and 3h00 and 12€ for regional trains. There are still a lot of passenger that still use regional trains because they are cheaper. That is, citizens paid billions for a new HSL with less traffic than possible. I hope that for NL will be different.

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/...ux/benelux.gif

[this discussion is, again, OT - this thread is quite big - is it possible to split it?]
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Old October 11th, 2009, 01:13 PM   #3377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
You said both that trains are very well used and passengers don't find seats, and travel standing also for "long" trips, and that roads are always jammed. Improving PT is nearly always the best solution in situations like this. Nearly all tramways and metro lines built in the world in the last 30 years carry more passenger than the number predicted before their construction, and always attract new passangers that previously used their car.
You think too simplistic. Yes, you can expand railroads to 4 tracks to increase capacity, unfortunatly, this costs billions and has NO EFFECT whatsoever on road usage. The traffic volumes on A2 between Utrecht and Amsterdam didn't decrease after the Utrecht - Amsterdam railroad was 4-tracked. The 4-tracking of Amsterdam - Utrecht cost € 1 billion for 30 km.

There are a few problems when it comes to PT in the Netherlands.

1) you need additional transport to reach your destination, before and after the trip. This adds greatly to the travel times.
2) Politicians stare themselves blind at travel times between railroad stations, yet this represents almost 0% of the trips. Commutes don't start and end at a station.
3) The travel speed of trains isn't a problem. Waiting times and additional transport is. Increasing the speed from 140 to 160 km/h by investing billions in additional safety systems is a waste.
4) 90% of the trips is twice as fast during rush hour with a car (or bicycle in a city), according to a government survey carried out by the Central Bureau of Planning.
5) There is limited funding. With 2 billion, you can 4-track a railroad with no decrease in traffic congestion whatsoever, or widen a significant stretch of freeway with the results that nearly all congestion is gone. What do you choose?
6) The bicycle is almost always faster within urban areas.
7) PT is only faster towards city centers or long-distance trips. Neither are prevalent in the Dutch commuting patterns.
8) PT carries only 10% of the mileage but costs the same as roads. Hence, the price for PT is 10 times higher on a per-traveler base.
9) Most paying travelers are discounted somewhere between 60 and 90%, except when you're traveling first class without any reduction.
10) Over 90% of the travelers with PT have no daily access to a car. That's why PT doesn't solve traffic problems.
11) PT has mostly a different target audience than road transport, the reasons are mentioned above.

* note: I strictly argue about this in the relation between trains and roads. I don't say investing in trains to relieve railroad congestion is a waste. I only think it's a waste when it's an excuse to do nothing about the roads.

Quote:
If students are encouraged to use PT, they will use less their cars, so reducing traffic. This isn't a bad idea...
With fuel prices around € 1,40 monthly road tax about € 40, insurance about € 40 and the excise duties on cars of 42%, cars are generally unaffordable for students. The only thing PT has managed is to get students off their bikes, into tax-sponsored transport (e.g. PT).

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; October 11th, 2009 at 01:19 PM.
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Old October 11th, 2009, 02:44 PM   #3378
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1) It depends where you have to go. City centre to city centre trips may be faster by train.
2) Ok.
3) Absolutely true. Sometimes it is faster doing 300 km with an HST than the 70 km to reach the stations. This is something Italian railways don't understand, putting an HST every 15 minutes between Milan and Rome but doing nothing to reach their stations from nearby towns.
4) Do you have details? Or graphics like these about Switzerland? http://www.litra.ch/Les_transports_en_chiffres.html
5) I choose the railway, if in a big city (I know some examples for Milan where quadrupling tracks had a positive effect). But it depends from the situation.
6) Bicycles are quite small...so allow their transport on trains it is (would be?) a good idea.
7) PT is faster to city centres, but also other trisp can be improved, if politics want.
8) Again - do you have more statistics? 1.000 people doing 50 km rural areas and 10.000 doing 5 km are both 50.000 passengers.km - but they aren't comparable...
9) This isn't at all a bad idea.
10) PT solve traffic problems if well planned. And it isn't always expensive. I know a railway line in Milan where traffic rose from 10.000 to 40.000 passenger/day by simply adding new trains (one every 15 minutes instead one every 60-120 minutes), without new tracks. It uses a railway opened in 1849. This is cheaper than adding lanes and avoids 30.000 car trips.
11) It is true in rural areas, not always true in urban areas.

Quote:
You think too simplistic. Yes, you can expand railroads to 4 tracks to increase capacity, unfortunatly, this costs billions and has NO EFFECT whatsoever on road usage.
This means that there is a great demand for transport. Here new roads may be a solution, but only after having tried with PT.

Quote:
With fuel prices around € 1,40 monthly road tax about € 40, insurance about € 40 and the excise duties on cars of 42%, cars are generally unaffordable for students. The only thing PT has managed is to get students off their bikes, into tax-sponsored transport (e.g. PT).
High fuel prices aren't that bad if they discourage the use of cars. Where goes the money of fuel taxes?
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Old October 11th, 2009, 04:08 PM   #3379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
1) It depends where you have to go. City centre to city centre trips may be faster by train.
Most people do not live in city centers.

Quote:
5) I choose the railway, if in a big city (I know some examples for Milan where quadrupling tracks had a positive effect). But it depends from the situation.
Making 4-track railways doesn't solve jams, not even a bit. In general railway widening isn't bad to keep up with the growing number of passengers, though.

Quote:
Bicycles are quite small...so allow their transport on trains it is (would be?) a good idea.
Taking bicycles in trains is forbidden during rush hour since they actually use relatively a lot of space (and time) in packed trains. AFAIK it costs €6 to take a normal bike in a train. Folding bikes (which can be carried in any time for free) are quite popular though.

Quote:
7) PT is faster to city centres, but also other trisp can be improved, if politics want.
But the less centric the PT network is, the more it costs to improve it. You cannot make high frequency PT connections to large industrial zones when nobody uses it. That's unaffordable.

Quote:
This means that there is a great demand for transport. Here new roads may be a solution, but only after having tried with PT.
You'd think we never tried? Again, PT is NOT that bad here if you take our city densities in consideration, but at some point it's just harder (up to impossible) to get more people in PT here. That's a fact you just have to accept.

Quote:
High fuel prices aren't that bad if they discourage the use of cars. Where goes the money of fuel taxes?
If you take the total costs of a car, then PT is practicly always cheaper. But still most people use the car. This shows that in general travel times are more important than the price of transport.
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Old October 11th, 2009, 05:01 PM   #3380
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I have nothing to add. Only that it would be interesting to have more detailed statistics.

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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I hear about people driving 2.5 hours for 30 - 40 kms every day around Utrecht (as was today). (some guy I know works in the UMC (Utrecht medical center) in Utrecht always has colleagues coming hours late)
Like this University: http://maps.google.ch/maps?f=q&sourc...,0.038409&z=15

Form where people come from? Why these "colleagues" don't (or can't) use PT? If this University had been built near a railway would they have used PT instead of cars? Can this be solved building tramways or metro lines?

Quote:
Most people do not live in city centers.
Can this be solved building parkings near railway stations instead of city centres or unviersities?
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