daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old August 16th, 2007, 09:15 PM   #321
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

If your goal is to "I'll try to find out if connecting the different urbannetworks (Randstadrail etc.) will help against the traffic problem on the road."

For that, you need some road investigation too. The history section www.autosnelwegen.nl is very extensive, and could be very useful.

But i already know what my conclusion would be;

Dutch drivers don't find PT as a good alternative. You have to put billions and billions to a extremely less cost-effective PT to make PT a good alternative. Meanwhile, it is much cheaper and more efficient, to just add more capacity to the roads.

Now, for 90% of the car travels, PT is just not a good alternative, and for like 70 - 80% it will never be. So you have to make choices, spending billions on a PT system that is a little better, or spend a few billions in roadwidening, and immediatly get positive results.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old August 17th, 2007, 05:06 AM   #322
LtBk
Registered User
 
LtBk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Greater Baltimore
Posts: 3,103
Likes (Received): 3711

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris1491 View Post
If your goal is to "I'll try to find out if connecting the different urbannetworks (Randstadrail etc.) will help against the traffic problem on the road."

For that, you need some road investigation too. The history section www.autosnelwegen.nl is very extensive, and could be very useful.

But i already know what my conclusion would be;

Dutch drivers don't find PT as a good alternative. You have to put billions and billions to a extremely less cost-effective PT to make PT a good alternative. Meanwhile, it is much cheaper and more efficient, to just add more capacity to the roads.

Now, for 90% of the car travels, PT is just not a good alternative, and for like 70 - 80% it will never be. So you have to make choices, spending billions on a PT system that is a little better, or spend a few billions in roadwidening, and immediatly get positive results.
If PT is crappy as you say, than how come its a popular choice in other European cities and in other continents?
LtBk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 17th, 2007, 09:37 AM   #323
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

Because, the Randstad (where most of the PT is) is not build-up in the same way as other European cities. Its less dense, making PT just inefficient. Making PT a success in Berlin, Paris or Madrid, doesn't say it is a success in the Randstad, because the circumstances are competely different. You can't just compare the Ruhr area or Barcelona with the Randstad.

Then, you have 2 options; spend more billions in PT, without noticing much effect to the traffic jams (as is happening in the last 2 decades), or just add some more lanes to the mostly only 2x2 lane motorways in this 7 million conurbation. You'll see immediatly results.

The last decade, the budget for PT was about twice as high as for motorways, although the FAR majority of miles travelled are on the motorways. So they put billions and billions each year on PT, and you would think traffic jams will decrease, but in fact, it's the opposite, traffic jams rise for years in a row with 10% annually.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 17th, 2007, 05:13 PM   #324
Koesj
Historian
 
Koesj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: 050
Posts: 429
Likes (Received): 72

And for the Randstad conurbation the simple fact is that the most viable high-density PT lines are already operating about as efficiently as possible. Tell us how we might operate a PT system in an extremely sub-urbanised and decentralised environment and we'll stop yapping about much-needed road widening and a strengthening of our highway network
Koesj no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 27th, 2007, 08:31 PM   #325
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

The Dutch minister of DOT (Department of Transportation) Camiel Eurlings has confirmed the minutes of traffic jam in the first half of 2007 was 7,8 million traffic jam minutes. That's an increase of 17% compared to the first half of 2006.

The worst traffic jams where in the 2nd quarter at the detourroutes of the closed A2 near Den Bosch, because of roadworks along the Meusebridge.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 10th, 2007, 09:47 PM   #326
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

2 accidents this morning shows the vulnerability of our freeway system.

At 5.45 am 6 cars collided on the A2 near Utrecht-Centrum one of the 3 lanes had to be closed. By 6.45 am the traffic jam was 16 km or 10 miles long. The closure of the lane was soon over, and by 7 am, all lanes were free for traffic. But because of the huge amount of traffic, by 7.30 am the traffic jam was 36km or 22 miles long. The traffic jam lasted until 11 am.

Another accident in the region completed the gridlock, on the A15 between exits Leerdam and Arkel, 6 trucks collided around 8 am. A huge ravage was the result. The whole freeway had to be closed towards Rotterdam. The result was a traffic jam of 16km or 10 miles, but that's not extraordinary, but people were standing there until 11.30 am. Most people missed half of the workday.

-----

Our freeway system is so much overcrowded, one short simple accident can gridlock an entire region, or sometimes a quarter of the country.

This is not rare, it happens everyday...
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 11th, 2007, 09:42 AM   #327
OettingerCroat
Disenfranchised
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oakland (USA) // Split (CRO)
Posts: 7,678
Likes (Received): 22

one of the best networks in the world
OettingerCroat no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 11th, 2007, 07:06 PM   #328
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

Severe delays in Southern Holland province.

An accident this morning on the A12 near Voorburg in the direction of The Hague caused severe delays on motorways in the region.
The exit lane of Voorburg was closed, and caused a traffic jam of 24 kilometer. The entire A13 from Rotterdam to The Hague was jammed over it´s 15km length. The A4 was also jammed for a serious length, causing an entire gridlock in the region. Delays were far over an hour.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2007, 09:52 AM   #329
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

Gridlock in Utrecht province

Around 16.00 hours, on the A2 between Utrecht and Amsterdam, a truck carrying a mobile crane flipped over near Abcoude. All 3 lanes towards Amsterdam where blocked for a long time, causing a huge traffic gridlock in the entire region. The traffic was stuck over 15km behind the accident, but because this accident happened during rushhour, a 35km long traffic jam existed on the detourroute, the A27 motorway along the eastern side of Utrecht. After a serious accident on the N201 national road, the entire region came to a standstill, the A1, A2, A9, A10, A12 and A27 where all completely jammed. Over 100 kilometer of traffic jam existed because of this accident.

Around 8 am, an accident with 2 trucks on the A15 towards Nijmegen near Tiel happened, causing one of the truck to caught fire. The whole road was blocked, the traffic jam wasn't that long, about 12km, but lasted over 10 hours. Around 19.00 hours, the road was opened to traffic. This closure on the main transport axis A15 causes a lot of truck to detour over the A12, which was the scene of many short traffic jams because of the extra traffic.

[img]http://i11.************/4q39cns.jpg[/img]
Truck on fire on the A15 motorway near Tiel.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2007, 03:59 PM   #330
KIWIKAAS
Registered User
 
KIWIKAAS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The Hague
Posts: 4,522
Likes (Received): 753


If I read your reports it makes me think that maybe they need to tighten up rules and penalties even more. Despite all the driver education people are obviously still not driving responsibly. Let's face it, all the accidents you're mentioning here are more than likely caused by driver fault. Often ''proffessional'' drivers that see it as a birth right to disobey the rules and of course all the other idiots out there.
KIWIKAAS no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2007, 04:10 PM   #331
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

That's not entirely true. The Netherlands is one of the safest countries in the world to drive in. But with AADT up to 180.000 accidents just do happen. Especially with the load of trucks we are dealing with. Sometimes the right lane is more a truck lane as a driving lane.

The bad thing is, that the government is more aimed at (automated) speeding checks, rather than tailgating or traffic patrols. It's much more likely you'll get a ticket for 10km/h too fast, than for tailgating the whole year.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2007, 03:00 PM   #332
CborG
Rick Bakker
 
CborG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Culemborg
Posts: 4,946
Likes (Received): 372

The construction of a small piece of A4 motorway near Bergen op Zoom is getting more visible, viaducts are being constructed:


by: M.J.Boluijt (Panoramio.com)



This stretch is supposed to bypass a village to relief its centre from the heavy traffic.
__________________
Ik ben niet gek.... Ik ben Psychisch Onverklaarbaar.

Last edited by CborG; September 14th, 2007 at 03:09 PM.
CborG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2007, 03:06 PM   #333
CborG
Rick Bakker
 
CborG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Culemborg
Posts: 4,946
Likes (Received): 372

Hopefully I will live long enough to see the whole A4 completed from Amsterdam to Antwerp
__________________
Ik ben niet gek.... Ik ben Psychisch Onverklaarbaar.
CborG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2007, 03:22 PM   #334
CborG
Rick Bakker
 
CborG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Culemborg
Posts: 4,946
Likes (Received): 372

Some nice aireals of the recently widened A4 and the new HSL, 20km south of Amsterdam:











__________________
Ik ben niet gek.... Ik ben Psychisch Onverklaarbaar.
CborG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2007, 05:55 PM   #335
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

http://www.rijkswega4.nl/a4-midden/f...606-348-01.jpg

I never get this kind of stuff. Such buildings near a freeway are out of the question because of noise pollution (i work extensive with this stuff), but some 300km/h railway is allowed?
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2007, 06:49 PM   #336
Rebasepoiss
Registered User
 
Rebasepoiss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tallinn
Posts: 5,819
Likes (Received): 1822

A motorway is like a dozen times noisier than a 300km/h train.
Rebasepoiss no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2007, 07:58 PM   #337
Jeroen669
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 787
Likes (Received): 13

I rather live next to a motorway than next to a busy railway. Be sure it makes a lot of noise with such speeds. That's nothing comparing to the constant noise of traffic driving around 100km/h. (if traffic even drives, the A4 at Leiden is known to be one of the most jammed motorways in Holland) The section shown on the photo's is also planned to be the busiest section: 6 trains per hour in each direction, so 12 trains per hour. I wish them luck...
Jeroen669 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2007, 08:25 PM   #338
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
A motorway is like a dozen times noisier than a 300km/h train.
Nope, a railway line is easily 70 - 80 dB(A). Motorways are mostly not over 60 dB(A) because we use ZOAB (PAC) asphalt, which is noise-reducing.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2007, 08:32 PM   #339
Rebasepoiss
Registered User
 
Rebasepoiss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tallinn
Posts: 5,819
Likes (Received): 1822

Ok, I'm used to quite "loud" asphalt here, but I still think that a constant but lower noise causes more stress and tiredness than a railway line that is louder. Although, I personally don't see a problem with building motorways or railways close to houses when there is a proper noise barrier.
Rebasepoiss no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 16th, 2007, 11:58 AM   #340
RoadUser
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 200
Likes (Received): 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris1491 View Post
http://www.rijkswega4.nl/a4-midden/f...606-348-01.jpg

I never get this kind of stuff. Such buildings near a freeway are out of the question because of noise pollution (i work extensive with this stuff), but some 300km/h railway is allowed?
Where would a train be able to do 300km/h in Holland?

The regular trains there seem to stop at a major city about every 10 minutes. Where would it be able to build up any speed?
RoadUser no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
congestion, dutch, friesland, highways, motorways, netherlands

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium