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Old September 16th, 2007, 12:27 PM   #341
CborG
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Between Amsterdam and Antwerp there are only 2 stops; Rotterdam and Schiphol. Antwerp-Rotterdam is roughly 90km and Rotterdam-Schiphol is almost 50km. So 300km/h is very possible, although not for much longer than 15-20 minutes.
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Old September 16th, 2007, 03:20 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by CborG View Post
Between Amsterdam and Antwerp there are only 2 stops; Rotterdam and Schiphol. Antwerp-Rotterdam is roughly 90km and Rotterdam-Schiphol is almost 50km. So 300km/h is very possible, although not for much longer than 15-20 minutes.
Tks.
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Old September 17th, 2007, 08:31 PM   #343
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Long traffic jams because of rain

Continuous rainshowers caused a lot of traffic jams in the central part of the Netherlands. Most motorways in the central part of the Netherlands were jammed, 80 traffic jams and 370km of queue lasted the morning, while the morningrushhour continued into eveningrushhour, with over 60 traffic jams and 340km of queue.
In normal circumstances, Dutch drivers tend to keep less than a second distance to the next car. (almost tailgating). But in rain, drivers tends to keep a more safe distance, creating a lot of extra and longer traffic jams. Although 300 - 400km of jam is pretty normal, sometimes it's over 600km of queue. During winter time with unexpected snow, traffic jams grow to a whopping 950km of queue at peak.
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Old September 17th, 2007, 10:01 PM   #344
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yuotalk about trains - what is max speed of Thalys in the Netherlands?
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Old September 17th, 2007, 10:04 PM   #345
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Now 160km/h (on a very short stretch, mostly 120/140km/h), in the future 300km/h.
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Old September 17th, 2007, 10:13 PM   #346
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i thought they run up tp 300 as in France! do you know for Belgium?
btw, i guess the same situation is with ICE lines, right?
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Old September 17th, 2007, 10:21 PM   #347
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I don't know, this is also a bit offtopic
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Old September 17th, 2007, 10:27 PM   #348
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We don't have High Speed Rail systems in use yet. Most of the city-connecting rail network is 130-140 km/h. (there are some stretches 160km/h, but most trains (in fact I thought all of them, except the Thalys) don't have the right security for that). On local lines it differs from 80 to 130 km/h.

On the new HSL-stretch I thougt it would become 250km/h on the stretch Rotterdam - Schiphol and 300 km/h between Rotterdam and Antwerp.
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Old September 18th, 2007, 10:09 AM   #349
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Accident cloggs up Rotterdam

An accident this morning caused a gridlock in a large region around Rotterdam. The accident happened on the A16 at the Van Brienenoord bridge across the Meuse river, causing a 12km long queue behind it, but also blocking other motorways, so an 20km long queue existed on the A15 from Gorinchem, and while over 20km split in 3 qeues blocked the A20 motorway at the nothern side of Rotterdam. The A15 south of Rotterdam jammed aswell, and a 12km long queue existed on the A29, making the gridlock complete in the Rotterdam region. The A4 queued as well, on the western side of Rotterdam. Over 70km of queue was the result around 8.30 am because of this single accident.

Total queus reached 80 traffic jams and 370km of queue
One simple accident.... Entire region gridlocked.
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Old September 18th, 2007, 07:01 PM   #350
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A16 again closed due to accident

At the same point as this morning, a truck turned over just after the Brienenoord Bridge across the Meuse river, this time in the anti-rushhour direction. It still caused long traffic jams, a 10km long traffic jam was behind it, but in the southbound direction, a traffic jam formed that lasted on the A20 and A13 motorway, causing over 40km of queue related to this accident.

At the same time, 2 lanes had to be closed in the Botlektunnel on the almost adjacent A15 motorway, where an accident took place, completing the traffic chaos around the city.

Other long queues took place at the A2, where a 30km long traffic jam formed on the western side of Utrecht, southbound, on the A28, an accident occured just north of Zwolle, causing 20km of queue northbound. On the A50, the usual 18km long queue existed between Interchange Grijsoord and Interchange Ewijk.
Truck accidents are really messing up EVERY rushhour, which now can be called half the morning and half the afternoon rushhours.
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Old September 18th, 2007, 08:03 PM   #351
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What would be the reason of such a load of accidents the last time?
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Old September 18th, 2007, 09:05 PM   #352
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Many constructions!?
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Old September 18th, 2007, 09:40 PM   #353
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No, the load of trucks. It's just too much, and accidents happen. The more traffic, the more accidents, and the more impact they have. The A16 is also the busiest Dutch motorway, having an AADT of 250.000.

If you close one motorway, the detourroute will be jammed over tens of kilometers, all motorways have reached capacity in the Netherlands, also outside of rushhours.

Let me explain how it goes;
This is a schematic view of the motorways around Utrecht.
[IMG]http://i7.************/638fm87.png[/IMG]

First, on the A2, an accident occurs. Total road closure. Inital, a traffic jam grows behind the accident, traffic has nowhere to go.
Second, the traffic jam grows, blocking the A12 traffic that wants to go on the A2 (logic route).
The traffic jam of the A2 keeps growing, blocking also the A27, meanwhile, the traffic jam on the A12 keeps also growing, blocking A27 traffic to the A12.

In meantime, the A27 gets "promoted" to detour route of A2 traffic towards the north. The A27 is normally very busy, and can't handle all that traffic. The entire detourroute gets jammed.

But let's not forget the A12 traffic jam, which blocks the southbound A27 direction, so a traffic jam exist in both directions along the A27, blocking also the A28 traffic that has to go on the A27.

Now all roads in the region are jammed, and because no traffic is moving anymore, local roads to the motorways gets jammed too, causing a gridlock in the entire region.

This kind of stuff happens within 30 - 60 minutes after the accident within rushhours. The amount of traffic is huge, and the capacity is way too low for all that traffic.

I didn't even mention the soutbound A2 traffic jam because of people looking at the accident, causing traffic jams on the A9 and A10 motorways (not shown on the map).

So one single accident during rushhour (the worst is if they happen just after the start of rushhour), can blackout an entire province, and sometimes even larger areas as that, not to mention when an accident occurs on the detourroute (this happens very often, having two major motorways out of service).

People gets delayed hours and hours, and so is transportation, where the Dutch economy is based on. You can image what consequences this have to the Dutch transport economy if it happens every day. Not to mention the much more pollution you'll get from traffic jams.
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Old September 19th, 2007, 06:13 AM   #354
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You guys depend too much on auto transportion .
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Old September 19th, 2007, 11:56 AM   #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LtBk View Post
You guys depend too much on auto transportion .
Not necessarily, we live with 16,5 million people on the size of some American medium-sized counties. Public transportation is very crowded too during rushhour. It's not like that's a good alternative.

Where American freeways have 4 - 5 lanes per direction in urban areas, we have to do it with 2 or maybe 3 per direction, with often almost the same high numbers of traffic. We just have a road network, which is motorway-wise very good, but it still has the capacity of 1980, but we don't live in 1980 anymore, our population has grown with 2,5 million since then, and the government builds "new cities" away from the centers where work take place, hence the commute. The average car-commute is 25km (15 miles). But our N-road network is absolutely not an alternative, and sometimes even non-existing.

Most rivercrossings are only possible via motorway. Across the Waal rivier, on the entire length from Germany to the Coast, there are 8 crossings, 6 of them being a motorway with no alternative, and has mostly only 2 lanes per direction.
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Old September 19th, 2007, 12:30 PM   #356
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You guys depend too much on auto transportion .
Well, loads of countries do. And it's absolutely not that PT is non-existent. About 15% of the foreigners take PT. (which don't include the other 85% take a car!) The difficulty in our country is that we do have loads of cities, but they're all not really big. (most real cities here have 100.000-200.000 inhabitants) New city extensions are build with almost american standards. Those things are making PT attractive enough for city-to-city train connections, but not for most other trips.

And don't forget we are one of the countries with the most cyclists in the world. Our bicycle infrastructure is very extensive. In my opinion there should be more invested in that (and of course on motorways). It's way much cheaper than investments in PT and it's better for people's health.
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Old September 19th, 2007, 12:51 PM   #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen669 View Post
New city extensions are build with almost american standards.
Not really.

Dutch Sprawl:
[IMG]http://i17.************/62j2l2r.jpg[/IMG]
Zwolle, the Netherlands

American Sprawl:
[IMG]http://i9.************/6fu7vk1.jpg[/IMG]
Kansas City, Missouri

[IMG]http://i18.************/5zlaj4j.jpg[/IMG]
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
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Old September 19th, 2007, 01:10 PM   #358
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Bij wijze van spreken dan.
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Old September 19th, 2007, 02:03 PM   #359
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A1 will be clogged up with trucks

Trucktraffic at the A1 Apeldoorn - Deventer will grow so drastically, that by 2020, one lane will be a permanent parking lane for trucks. That shows a study by local governments.

The government of Gelderland and Overijssel demanding the construction of seperate truck lanes to deal with this problem. They are dissapointed for the point of view of transportation minister Camiel Eurlings to get the A1 off the priority list, the A1 will be taken care of after 2020.

They say at short notice, a permanent traffic gridlock will enter the region, that has huge results for the economy and reachability of Eastern Netherlands and the German hinterland.
Will this be the future of the A1?

(Photo taking at De Lutte border, when trucks are not allowed in Germany on holidays).

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; September 19th, 2007 at 07:54 PM.
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Old September 19th, 2007, 06:43 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by Chris1491 View Post
Not necessarily, we live with 16,5 million people on the size of some American medium-sized counties. Public transportation is very crowded too during rushhour. It's not like that's a good alternative.

Where American freeways have 4 - 5 lanes per direction in urban areas, we have to do it with 2 or maybe 3 per direction, with often almost the same high numbers of traffic. We just have a road network, which is motorway-wise very good, but it still has the capacity of 1980, but we don't live in 1980 anymore, our population has grown with 2,5 million since then, and the government builds "new cities" away from the centers where work take place, hence the commute. The average car-commute is 25km (15 miles). But our N-road network is absolutely not an alternative, and sometimes even non-existing.

Most rivercrossings are only possible via motorway. Across the Waal rivier, on the entire length from Germany to the Coast, there are 8 crossings, 6 of them being a motorway with no alternative, and has mostly only 2 lanes per direction.
To be fair, most urban freeways in the US are at or over capacity(495 for example) and do to urban sprawl and stupid bureaucracy, its very hard to upgrade freeways or build new ones,forcing millions to be stuck on traffic jams with no alternatives.

Last edited by LtBk; September 19th, 2007 at 06:50 PM.
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