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Old January 4th, 2010, 10:11 PM   #3721
piotr71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Tolls in the Netherlands

Tonight, the plans have been unveiled of a toll scheme in the Netherlands with an introduction in 2012.

A GPS-based toll will be implemented, and people will be charged according to distance, time and location. This means a drive during rush hour around Amsterdam will be expensive, but a nightly drive in Drenthe will be cheap.

On average, motorists will pay € 0,03 per kilometer in 2012 and € 0,067 in 2018. Road tax and car taxes will be canceled. This means cars will be cheaper by 40%. A car of € 25.000 will cost you € 17.850 in 2012. Monthly road tax will disappear too, which would save the average diesel driver over € 1000 per year.

I have no details on the location/time pricing yet. It would be interesting to know what say, a drive of 10 km on the A1 near Amsterdam cost at 8 am. Randstad rush hour drivers can expect a higher toll than the average "€0,03" advertised now.
All clear now! Yellow signs had to be done for lorry drivers as you said. What was their meaning then?
a) No vignettes needed?
b) No vignettes for sale?
or something else?
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Old January 4th, 2010, 10:23 PM   #3722
ChrisZwolle
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All clear now! Yellow signs had to be done for lorry drivers as you said. What was their meaning then?
a) No vignettes needed?
b) No vignettes for sale?
or something else?
b) No vignettes for sale. Apparently, that gas station didn't have Eurovignettes. It may also be the German Eurovignette, since only trucks over 12 tonnes are tolled with LKW Maut.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 06:32 PM   #3723
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130 is allowed... nowhere in the Netherlands.

More and more of the Randstad is 100 km/h unfortunately. Even A16 all the way to Breda is a stupid 100 km/h, even though it is a modern six-lane freeway which runs through pastures.
I looked at GMaps-Sat-Images looking for a cause why there's 100 at A16 between Rotterdam and Breda. I found a cause: I think it's because of settlement next to the motorway. At a stretch of some kilometres it isn't a dense population but there is one! Maybe some of them reached a 100-tempo-limit on this stretch?

If the whole traffic is going with 100 instead of 120 km/h it takes huge effects on noise and emissions! And seriously... like julesstoop said: it's not that big time advantage.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 07:12 PM   #3724
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Time issues are NOT the main factor in determining the speed limit. Many think "oh, it's just a few minutes". While that is true, speed limits should be based on road layout, traffic volumes and the V85 percentile.

Reducing the speed limit to 100 km/h every time there is a minor settlement along a motorway is just plain nonsense. That way you can downgrade almost all motorways.

Also, reducing the speed limit does NOTHING to noise levels in the Netherlands. This was surveyed in the widening of the A28 to six lanes between Zwolle and Meppel. People wanted the speed limit to be lowered from 120 to 100 km/h. They answered the actual noise reduction is only 0,5 dB, which is a difference you cannot notice.
Also, the pollutants emissions would only lower 0.3 - 1% of the emission limits (=40 microgrammes per m), which are also not exceeded in many parts of the Netherlands.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 08:38 PM   #3725
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The replies to my question seem to suggest that most just prefer a higher speed limit because driving a car on a motorway is more pleasant that way. And there is no real advantage to drive slower when the road layout allows a higher speed.

My answer to that is:
E = 1/2 mv^2
In other words, the amount of energy of a moving car increases by its speed squared, and this equation does not even take into account friction (so just 20% faster means 44% more energy). So the main advantage of driving a little slower seems to be relatively large fuel savings.

Do any of you know the average milage of your cars on 100 kph and 120 kph, because I might be wrong as to the real world implications of my assumption.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 08:50 PM   #3726
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100 km/h is, of course, more fuel efficient than 120 km/h, although fuel consumption really start to pick up above 130 km/h.

My diesel car gets about 21 km / liter at 100 -110 km/h and 19 km / liter at 120 - 130 km/h.
Modern petrol cars have RPM controllers these days, like VTEC and VVT-i, that way they don't need to run at 4000 RPM at 120 km/h anymore, but approach the RPM of a diesel car at 120 km/h, which is usually between 2600 and 3000 RPM. That way, fuel consumption is reduced.

However, the effect on pollutants concentrations is, like I said, pretty minimal, we're talking about 1 - 2 g per m at traffic volumes around 100,000 and somewhat more at higher traffic volumes. The limit for NOx and PM10 is 40 g per m, and is sometimes exceeded because of significant background concentrations, especially in large industrial, urban and coastal zones, and some agricultural areas like southeastern Noord-Brabant.

Something one has to understand is that a speed limit needs to be credible. i.e. a speed limit that fits the geometry and traffic of a road. 100 km/h doesn't fit on a rural six-lane motorway. 100 km/h does fit on an eight-lane, urban motorway with interchanges every kilometer. If speed limits aren't credible, it's just asking for significant speed violations. If speed limits are overall credible, people will adjust to lower speed limits where it is justified. If all speed limits are pointlessly low, the driver will most likely not adjust his speed at locations where it is really necessary.

If you drive a lot in Germany, you will notice German drivers behave significantly different than Dutch drivers. When there is a city limit sign, or a speed restriction, a German will actively brake to an appropriate speed. The Dutch driver won't. He will let go of the gas, but only slow down if it is actively enforced, like a speed camera or speed bump. That is why Dutch neighborhoods and towns are full of speed bumps and other traffic calming devices, while they are almost absent in Germany. That's a mentality difference, the Dutch isn't used to think for himself anymore, and why should he, every unusual situation is lined with signs, speed bumps and speed cameras. Yet the German traffic safety score is better than the Dutch one, even though they have significantly higher speed limits.

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; January 5th, 2010 at 09:07 PM.
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Old January 6th, 2010, 06:55 PM   #3727
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You can't move anymore in Amsterdam...sick. The sudden snow suprised everybody.

[IMG]http://i45.************/23iezao.jpg[/IMG]
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Old January 6th, 2010, 07:09 PM   #3728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by convalescence View Post
I looked at GMaps-Sat-Images looking for a cause why there's 100 at A16 between Rotterdam and Breda. I found a cause: I think it's because of settlement next to the motorway. At a stretch of some kilometres it isn't a dense population but there is one! Maybe some of them reached a 100-tempo-limit on this stretch?

If the whole traffic is going with 100 instead of 120 km/h it takes huge effects on noise and emissions! And seriously... like julesstoop said: it's not that big time advantage.
This is not a few kms, we're talking about the entire stretch between IC Terbregseplein and IC Galder, which is more than 40kms. On a motorway of this quality (even for dutch standards) that's just ridiculous. Especially between Dordrecht and Breda you'd almost fall asleep driving 100km/h...

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Old January 6th, 2010, 07:15 PM   #3729
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You can't move anymore in Amsterdam...sick. The sudden snow suprised everybody.

[IMG]http://i45.************/23iezao.jpg[/IMG]
Yeah it's a total mess. Meteorological services did not expect this kind of snowfall. The warnings were issued after the snowfall started.

Amsterdam vicinity ONLY:
[IMG]http://i46.************/2e5k1nm.png[/IMG]
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Old January 6th, 2010, 09:39 PM   #3730
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Trafficjam on N201, part of the Hoofddorp beltway

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr
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Old January 6th, 2010, 09:45 PM   #3731
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It is almost 9 pm, but Amsterdam metro is still a mess:

[IMG]http://i47.************/rstxqd.png[/IMG]
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Old January 6th, 2010, 09:53 PM   #3732
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115min wait in a 34km traffic jam?? Let me guess: S.N.O.W
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Old January 6th, 2010, 10:07 PM   #3733
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I took the bus back from work in Amstelveen to Schiphol Airport, normally a 15-20 minutes drive at most. It took me - or rather the bus driver - 2 hours this evening...

@ChrisZwolle: fair enough. If your information is correct - for which I see no reason why it shouldn't - a somewhat more realistic speed limit might actually help the environment due to more self-conscious driving behaviour.
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Old January 6th, 2010, 10:49 PM   #3734
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peezet View Post
they use a fohn to get rid of the ice
http://www.youtube.com/v/DfUdW2xUhI4&hl

Why they don`t (simply) salting a road but using a fohn on it?

Eco-terrorism?

It is funny to read a news about "cold" Europe if we haven`t problems.

PS: In slovak thread are photos of D1 motorway ("coldest" section), were taken about 1:00 PM. You can compare situation.
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Last edited by seem; January 6th, 2010 at 10:56 PM.
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Old January 6th, 2010, 10:51 PM   #3735
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Salt doesn't work on solid ice.

Amsterdam at 10 pm:
[IMG]http://i45.************/23kpuhf.png[/IMG]
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Old January 7th, 2010, 12:17 AM   #3736
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This was Amsterdam @ 7 pm: total chaos

[IMG]http://i49.************/2j4bmo7.jpg[/IMG]

Last edited by Daniel541; January 7th, 2010 at 12:23 AM.
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Old January 7th, 2010, 09:10 AM   #3737
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The last traffic jam disappeared at 1.45 am on A9.
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Old January 7th, 2010, 11:12 AM   #3738
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That's just horror....has never been like this or what?
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Old January 7th, 2010, 11:14 AM   #3739
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It has. On November 25th, 2005, about 25 cm of snow fell around the Veluwe area. The A50 was jammed for almost 20 hours in a row, the last traffic jams disappeared after 4.30 am back then. It was a major chaos, I had a teacher back then who drove from Zwolle to Apeldoorn (40km) and it took her 10 hours.
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Old January 7th, 2010, 03:46 PM   #3740
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Yesterday, it took me only 3 hours to get from Zaandam to Diemen. Since I read & heard that the A10 was a mess, I decided to take the backroads through the centre of Amsterdam. It wasn't much better, although I could drive slowly for the biggest part. The problem was that when I stood still, it usually took the traffic more than 15 minutes or half an hour to start moving again... I originally planned to drive back from Diemen to Amsterdam-Noord in the evening, but I decided to sleep over in Diemen
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