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Old January 13th, 2010, 11:24 PM   #3761
Jeroen669
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Quote:
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Do not you think you have called certain group of people in offensive way?
Nah, that's not offensive. Unfortunately, It's the truth...
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Old January 16th, 2010, 08:48 AM   #3762
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From what I have been reading, I'm not sure I fully understand all this hysteria.

Canada and the Netherlands are two very different places when it comes to climate, but I do not understand why it is that when snow falls European life seems to come to an end.

I understand that winter tire prices are about the same, with variance depending on the vehicle (even after CAD/EUR currency conversion), and I also understand that because it does not snow as often, or as heavily, people tend not to buy winter tires. Do most Dutch people have all-season tires? I would imagine they do as anything with less grip would be dangerous -even in rain.

This is why I don't understand what the problem is. If most people have all-season tires, they should be fine in the snow as long as they're driving safely. This is the first year that I have used winter tires. I have never been in accident before without them, either, and I've driven in whiteout conditions - as most Canadians have. Plenty Canadians do not drive with winter tires simply because they either find them expensive, or they don't feel it's necessary. Now that I own winter tires, I recommend them to everyone as the difference is remarkable. No sliding, not yet anyway.

Still, all-seasons are perfectly safe as long as the driver is safe. This is why there is strong opposition provincial governments when they propose winter tire legislation. As long as people drive reasonably, there are no problems.

If Amsterdam is shut down because of 25cm of snow, I think the problem is that people are simply just being careless. If it's snowing, you can't drive 100kmph no matter what kind of tires you have. Generally you can't exceed 50-60, depending on conditions. Without winter tires, you definitely aren't going to go more than 50 - that's asking for trouble. Take it slower; keep it 20 or even 30 below the speed limit.

I wouldn't think that this is rocket science to figure out. Snow and ice is slippery. Whether you're used to snow or not shouldn't matter, I'd think it it's common sense.

25cm is not a lot of snow compared to the northern US and Canada. I can't speak for Northern Europe or Russia, but I'd imagine that 25cm is a typical snowfall there as well. While 25cm would be a lot for the Netherlands as well as the rest of central and western Europe, I don't know why it causes the turmoil that it does. Just drive carefully.

What is it that stops the flow of traffic? Accidents? Inadequate snow-removal? Even if snow-removal is slow, cars (especially on busy highways) pack the snow down which actually makes the road easier to grip and they form their own sort of 'snow roads'. It can be slightly nerve-racking to change a lane because of the snow buildup between lanes, but other than that it's not so bad as long as you're driving safely for the conditions.

Chris said that it took a teacher of his 10 hours to travel 40km because of 25cm of snow. That's insanity. That should never happen, no matter where you live.
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Old January 16th, 2010, 11:42 AM   #3763
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2 centimeters of snow is enough to gridlock the Netherlands. The main problem is the Netherlands already has problematic traffic when all weather conditions are excellent. If it rains, traffic jams can easily double. If it snows it becomes really troublesome, because of the traffic jams, snowplows can't clear the roads, everything turns to solid ice and emergency services have a hard time getting to accidents or stalled vehicles. If snowplows can't clear the roads, empty trucks with a lack of axle load cannot handle the slightest inclines, such as tunnel ramps or bridge ramps, or even exit ramps. Those are the main reason motorways can be completely blocked for hours.

It turned out the huge problems on the railroad network had several factors, including ProRail having shut down the switch heatings, so they didn't work anymore with snow, NS having a huge backlog in maintenance (there are currently 700 train sets out of service!) plus the vulnerability of the network, especially around Utrecht. This all led to the fact 2 cm of snow fell in Utrecht, and nearly the entire Dutch railroad network was shut down, which lasted for almost 5 days.

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; January 16th, 2010 at 12:22 PM.
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Old January 16th, 2010, 01:30 PM   #3764
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rue is, Dutch drivers with this snow conditions and summer tires on wheels blame Polish about too fast driving but we (also Germans) have experiences in driving in winter conditions, Dutch not!
I doubt that's correct, I haven't heard anyone in Holland blame Poles for anything. And your reasoning is ridiculous to the extend that you always have to adapt your driving not only to your own skill level but also to the conditions around you and the people around you. It's just ignorant and dangerous to say you are a skilled driver in winter conditions so you can drive much faster than the dutch on summer tyres spinning out of control around you. It's the interaction with the road, the conditions and other road users around you that should determine your speed, not whether or not you yourself and your car can drive on snow or not....
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Old January 16th, 2010, 06:34 PM   #3765
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Do most Dutch people have all-season tires? I would imagine they do as anything with less grip would be dangerous -even in rain.
Regular tyres are superior to both winters and no-seasons in rainy conditions.
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Old January 16th, 2010, 07:27 PM   #3766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It turned out the huge problems on the railroad network had several factors, including ProRail having shut down the switch heatings, so they didn't work anymore with snow, NS having a huge backlog in maintenance (there are currently 700 train sets out of service!) plus the vulnerability of the network, especially around Utrecht. This all led to the fact 2 cm of snow fell in Utrecht, and nearly the entire Dutch railroad network was shut down, which lasted for almost 5 days.
Why on earth would they have to shut down their switch heaters? They are a basic component of any CTC system outside of the tropics.

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Old January 16th, 2010, 07:29 PM   #3767
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Originally Posted by Qaabus View Post
Regular tyres are superior to both winters and no-seasons in rainy conditions.
No, they're not. In the winter, roads are more often wet than dry or snow-covered. Actual snowfall, the kind that packs, is less common than wet snow that just melts when it touches anything. They're designed for watery road conditions, slush, snow and ice.

There is more traction with a winter tire and the treads are wider and deeper, allowing water, mud, snow and whatever else to escape than all-season or high performance (sport or summer) tires.

All-season tires are just as good as winter tires, if you keep your speed significantly lower and drive safely. When you say 'no season' tires, I'm not sure what you mean. I assume you mean an all-season tire?
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Old January 16th, 2010, 09:58 PM   #3768
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Yay, it's saturday night! It snows again. Snow + NL = traffic jam, regardless if it is rush hour, around noon, on a saturday or sunday night, traffic jams guaranteed.

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Old January 16th, 2010, 10:12 PM   #3769
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isn't there always traffic jams in NL, no matter weather or rush hour??
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Old January 16th, 2010, 11:38 PM   #3770
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There are only jams during the night when the weather is very bad

I see a traffic jam near the Hazeldonk border crossing. Must be a border check.
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Old January 17th, 2010, 01:13 AM   #3771
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Quote:
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Why on earth would they have to shut down their switch heaters?
They were switched off for scheduled maintenance. The only problem was that they forgot to switch them back on again when the maintenance was cancelled due to the snowfall
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Old January 18th, 2010, 04:53 PM   #3772
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They were switched off for scheduled maintenance. The only problem was that they forgot to switch them back on again when the maintenance was cancelled due to the snowfall
Now, why wouldn't they schedule such maintenance work during the SUMMER???



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Old January 18th, 2010, 10:37 PM   #3773
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Because they probably weren't expecting any winter
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Old January 19th, 2010, 08:10 PM   #3774
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I was amused that The Netherlands run out of road salt too... they had ordered only 70 thousand metric tons... too little for a country wiht a climate like this. If a second major snowstorm blows in Northern Europe this winter, we'll have serious problems, because stockpiles are low or depleted in UK, Netherlands and Belgium.
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Old January 19th, 2010, 10:34 PM   #3775
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70.000 tonnes isn't enough?? They must waste a lot of salt then
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Old January 19th, 2010, 10:45 PM   #3776
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The Dutch province of Overijssel salted 15 kilo of salt per meter road in total during the past month.
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Old January 19th, 2010, 10:47 PM   #3777
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How many km's of road are there in Overijssel??
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Old January 19th, 2010, 10:50 PM   #3778
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640 kilometers of provincial highways are salted. That makes 1 million kilo salt used by the Overijssel road authority. But Overijssel has only 1/16th of the Dutch population.
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Old January 19th, 2010, 10:53 PM   #3779
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Old January 24th, 2010, 02:25 AM   #3780
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Today, both ANWB (Dutch motorists and tourist association) and the Telegraaf (Telegraph newspaper) have launched a poll about the so-called "kilometerheffing" (kilometer charge) where every vehicle is to be charged by the kilometer.

As a member of ANWB, I also sent them an email where I explain why I am against the kilometer charge. Today, the ANWB started a poll, which immediately lead to a server overload and inaccessible web page for several hours. The Dutch newspaper Telegraaf (most circulated Dutch newspaper) also started a poll, and after several hours, already 65.000 people responded.

It shows the km charge debate is a very lively one. I wonder what the results would be though, the ANWB poll was fairly suggestive and pro-km charge in my opinion, there was no simply yes or no answer, but questions like "do you think it's a good thing traffic fatalities will drop because of the km charge", I mean, how in earth can you vote against that? Since when is the km charge and traffic fatalities rate a related thing? You couldn't simply say "I don't think it has any influence", but "i (strongly) agree" or "i (strongly) disagree".

So if you're against the km charge, you would need to put the crazy answer of "I disagree that it's a good thing traffic fatalities will drop because of the km charge".
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