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Old May 28th, 2010, 01:11 AM   #4141
Planen B
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Hi guys, noticed this thread a few days ago, finally went through all of it (crazy I know ), beautiful pictures and clips, much appreciated work

I've been looking at detailed drawings for the changes to the autosnelwegen in the SAAL corridor. One thing that caught my eye is that the interchange of the A6 (technically the southern part of the ring) with the Almere ring road N702 at Almere Stad-West is going to be fully freeflowing according to the plans.

Does anyone know why they are making this exception to the rule? And it must be an exception, because I think it's unthinkable that they are actually upgrading the status of the N702, as far as I know it is fully sufficient at the moment.
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Old May 28th, 2010, 02:02 AM   #4142
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The S-101 is probably going to be considered as a major thoroughfare for Almere. I don't think it will get an 'autosnelwegstatus' but this is going to be a very important route in the Almere 2.0-plans.
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Old May 28th, 2010, 09:46 AM   #4143
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It's about damn time they lifted this crazy ban on free-flowing interchanges between a freeway and non-freeway. Some of these roads carry over 50,000 vehicles per day. The best thing to do is making such interchange free-flowing.
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Old May 28th, 2010, 09:51 AM   #4144
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The Dutch government makes € 800 million available for the widening of A1, A27 and A28 between Utrecht, Hilversum and Amersfoort (a triangle). These motorways are mostly 4 lanes, and all carry between 90,000 and 120,000 vehicles per day. Together they form one of the most congested areas in the Netherlands.

This € 800 million comes on top of € 600 million made available by a fund for infrastructure. The € 1.4 billion widening project must be completed in 2015, and the rebuilding of interchange Hoevelaken in 2020. Procedures started in 2008 when the "startnotitie" (initial notice) was published. About 3.050 people sent a point-of-view, of which just over 1.000 turned out to be a duplicate.
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Old May 28th, 2010, 10:07 AM   #4145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
This € 800 million comes on top of € 600 million made available by a fund for infrastructure. The € 1.4 billion widening project must be completed in 2015, and the rebuilding of interchange Hoevelaken in 2020. Procedures started in 2008 when the "startnotitie" (initial notice) was published. About 3.050 people sent a point-of-view, of which just over 1.000 turned out to be a duplicate.
EU funds?

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Old May 28th, 2010, 10:22 AM   #4146
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No - EU funding for Dutch projects is rare to non-existent. I believe the A2 tunnel in Maastricht (E25) is funded for 5% by EU. (compare that to the 70 - 80% EU funding projects in Poland).
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Old May 28th, 2010, 10:28 AM   #4147
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EU is not a good business for you...
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Old May 28th, 2010, 10:43 AM   #4148
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Doesn't matter. The Netherlands is one of the richest countries in the world that has a car-related revenue of about € 16 billion per year. We should be able to fund it ourselves.
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Old May 28th, 2010, 08:15 PM   #4149
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Another positive news item is that there has been an agreement between Rijkswaterstaat (national road authority) and the provinces Drenthe and Groningen to double N33 from A28 near Assen to A7 near Zuidwolde to 4 lanes. This is currently a 2-lane single carriageway express road with controlled access.

The 2x2 road is necessary to keep the N33 flowing, as the truck share is quite high, over 20%. Traffic safety is also an issue with a number of fatalities in the past years. The speed limit of 100 km/h can rarely be observed. The new 2x2 N33 will be an "Autoweg" (expressway) with grade-separated interchanges and no shoulders.

A proposed rebuild to 2x1 lanes with shoulders, divided lanes but only 1 driving lane per direction was not seen as a good solution, as traffic flow would not increase and growing traffic volumes will require 4 lanes around 2020 anyway. So they've decided to go with 2x2 lanes from the beginning. A 2x2 Autoweg saves 50% of the cost compared to a 2x2 autosnelweg.

Route:
[IMG]http://i45.************/2ugnoyh.jpg[/IMG]
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Old May 30th, 2010, 05:24 PM   #4150
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Why are the Dutch so keen to cut the shoulder on highway projects? Is farmland that expensive or scarce to make a difference about, say, building a 1.0m shoulder in the N-routes?
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Last edited by Suburbanist; May 31st, 2010 at 02:18 PM.
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Old May 30th, 2010, 05:34 PM   #4151
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The anti-car lobby is neck-deep into the design club, and thinks it encourages speeding. I mean, the idea of going a little faster... Oh the humanity.

Another issue is that here in the Netherlands, it's absolutely not-done to have a road that looks better than they think it should be. So they cut shoulders on expressways, and downgrade a lot of minor roads to a 60 km/h road. An example is the picture below. They want to lower the speed limit from 80 to 60 km/h "because it's not a major link in the system". That's how ****ed-up these ideas are, it's forbidden to have a well-designed road if it's not a super-duper important road.

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Old May 30th, 2010, 05:46 PM   #4152
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Is there a place where one could view different road standards used in the Netherlands and the recommended AADT for each standard?
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Old May 30th, 2010, 06:14 PM   #4153
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Only in Dutch, wegenwiki for example.

Some standards;

* Stroomweg - SW: 100 - 120 km/h no AADT limit
* Gebiedsontsluitingsweg - GOW: 80 km/h no AADT limit
* Erftoegangsweg - ETW: 60 km/h max 6.000 AADT

Those first names (Stroomweg - SW, Gebiedsontsluitingsweg - GOW and Erftoegangsweg (ETW) indicate the function of the road, or rather, they used to indicate that. Now traffic volumes, road-layout and function doesn't matter anymore.

We have:
* ETW's (60 km/h) that carry in excess of 15.000 AADT while they are intended to be rural roads without a significant traffic function
* GOW's (80 km/h) that used to be an SW (Autoweg) that simple got other road markings and now an 80 km/h limit instead of 100 km/h
* ETW's (30 km/h) that have a through function in villages

The main problem today is that the road function is not necessarily leading in design, in fact many busy roads are downgraded. There is a large "gray" area with roads that do have some driveway access (ETW) but also have a significant traffic function with high traffic volumes. Another issue is that some 60 km/h ETW roads have physically separated bicycle paths, but retain their 60 km/h limit (see photo above for an example). Another issue is where perfectly good 100 km/h roads are downgraded to an 80 km/h GOW simply "because they don't look good in the network".

The interest of the motorist is something that comes last in road design.

All in all, speed limits in the Netherlands are often 20 km/h lower than roads with a similar traffic function would get in other countries. It's an enormous cash cow for the police, because speed limits are kept artificially and unnecessarily low, they generate a lot of revenue. Police usually performs speed checks exactly at the locations where speed limits are obviously low.
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Old May 30th, 2010, 06:28 PM   #4154
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Some examples of unnecessary low speed limits.

1. Arkemheenweg in Nijkerk. No cyclists allowed. This road is officially within city limits. Divided lanes. Speed limit = 50 km/h


2. N337 south of Wijhe. No cyclists, parallel slow traffic lanes. Current speed limit 80 km/h. Proposed downgrading to 60 km/h.


3. N347 south of Ommen. No cyclists, parallel lanes for slow traffic. Previous speed limit: 100 km/h. Current speed limit: 80 km/h. Proposed speed limit: 60 km/h.


4. N762 west of Giethoorn. Physically separated bicycle paths. Previously narrowed roadway with improved shoulders. Current speed limit: 80 km/h. Future speed limit: 60 km/h.


5. N319 Ruurlo - Groenlo. Dead-straight, low traffic volumes, no slow traffic and a continuous passing ban!


The problems are certainly not confined to these examples, but are widespread throughout the Netherlands. You can understand many motorists are fed up with all these childish regulations, unnecessary low speed limits and unnecessary passing bans.
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Old May 30th, 2010, 07:32 PM   #4155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
You can understand many motorists are fed up with all these childish regulations, unnecessary low speed limits and unnecessary passing bans.
Does it mean they are likely to be speeding?
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Old May 30th, 2010, 07:48 PM   #4156
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Yeah, but not excessive or reckless. On previously 100 km/h roads that are now 80 km/h, most people drive around 90 -100. On previously 80 km/h roads that are now 60 km/h, people drive between 70 and 90 km/h.

I do a fair amount of traffic counts where we also register speed. It's not uncommon to have a V85 value* that is 20 - 25 km/h over the speed limit. In political terms it means people are driving way too fast, but in realistic terms it means the speed limit is not conform road layout.

*The V85 value is the speed 85% of the traffic does not exceed. It's common to have a V85 that is 5 - 10% higher than the speed limit.
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Old May 30th, 2010, 09:03 PM   #4157
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I can imagine another reason for such low speed limits. Maybe they want to limit transit traffic on these roads as much as possible, and force the motorists to use the main roads by applying such measures. The road network is dense, so it may be possible to avoid a road like that. Do you think this is the case or not?

@ PLH: I almost never see Dutch drivers driving so fast that it would be dangerous. In general they are assertive only when they have a clear reason. It's similar with cyclists, although cyclists tend to drive a bit more dangerously.
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Old May 30th, 2010, 10:08 PM   #4158
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Quote:
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I can imagine another reason for such low speed limits. Maybe they want to limit transit traffic on these roads as much as possible, and force the motorists to use the main roads by applying such measures. The road network is dense, so it may be possible to avoid a road like that. Do you think this is the case or not?
Don't you think these shown roads ARE main roads?
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Old May 30th, 2010, 10:10 PM   #4159
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I would classify them as secondairy main roads. Not super-important for through traffic, but they connect larger towns directly. Certainly not a reason to classify them as an ETW with a 60 km/h limit.

ETW means driveway access, but some of my examples have no to almost no driveway access....
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Old May 30th, 2010, 10:29 PM   #4160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen669 View Post
Don't you think these shown roads ARE main roads?
I think that the N337 west of Wijhe illustrates best what I mean. I found that it's the most direct road between Deventer and Zwolle. There is also a highway alternative for that route (A1+A50+A28) which is longer, but drivers could be motivated to use that route because the N337 has a low speed limit.

In a country which has such a dense and complex road network, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case. In the same way, some roads in Eindhoven are being made narrower (sometimes only visually, by widening the fietspad or using stone tiles instead of asphalt) so that the traffic uses other roads. And it works very well.
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