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Old October 9th, 2010, 03:44 PM   #4641
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
I dont know what you mean with the right to develop your own plot... If you mean, that you cannot just simply decide to do on the land you own whatever you want, but that you have to first bargain with the authorities... well this is quite common in the whole Europe I guess.
Let me try to ellaborate a little more. I'm anot condoning Bangladesh-style development, just US-style.

Every civilized rich country has its own planning laws. However, in some countries a general regulation system applies, whereas you find detailed, specific but general norms and rules about what and how something can be built somewhere. So you have the laws, you check them, and provided you stay within its framework, you are relatively free to build as you want.

Netherlands and other countries, however, opt for an ex-post analysis of development projects. They also have a lot of general applicable laws, but decide to introduce lengthy, costly and, in my opinion, overstretched and excessive requirements for hearings, technical appraisals and evaluations and so on, to the point that a would-be developed can't just look at the law and plan a development in the dark to surprise the market and grab a good spot of land to especulate with construction activiy years later.
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Old October 9th, 2010, 06:14 PM   #4642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Let me try to ellaborate a little more. I'm anot condoning Bangladesh-style development, just US-style.

Every civilized rich country has its own planning laws. However, in some countries a general regulation system applies, whereas you find detailed, specific but general norms and rules about what and how something can be built somewhere. So you have the laws, you check them, and provided you stay within its framework, you are relatively free to build as you want.

Netherlands and other countries, however, opt for an ex-post analysis of development projects. They also have a lot of general applicable laws, but decide to introduce lengthy, costly and, in my opinion, overstretched and excessive requirements for hearings, technical appraisals and evaluations and so on, to the point that a would-be developed can't just look at the law and plan a development in the dark to surprise the market and grab a good spot of land to especulate with construction activiy years later.

As I said, quite common in Europe. It has several reasons, the most important one being the scarcity of land and more concern for the social space be it litterally or in the society(societel?) sense as well as bigger concern about something called public good.

Also once you take into account externalities, you would realise that these are also handled differently in the US and in Europe. In the US are mostly handled by the private fights at the court and the stronger takes it all... In Europe are mostly handled by those hearings and processes you mention. I dont want to jump into economic theory on externalities and transaction costs (Coase), but I must say, that based on it I prefer the European way.

The bangladesh example wasnt given just out of blue to compare rich and poor country. It was given, because both countries experience similar geographicall conditions. The approach that these two countries took towards the problem of laying in the deltas of huge rivers (yes I am aware that Ganga is bit different leage) has been different. What I want to point out is the simple fact, taht without carefull planning of the land use and setup, the crown of holland could be washed away one day... literally. I just remember about the story I heard about these tribes over Rhine living on the heapes of land in the mudd...the description of the NL by the Romans :O, thats the starting point here.

But I dont deny that these processes might be bit overdone... of course there are lots of parties interested in as costly process as possible...the rent seekers. In general however I cannot imagine that we could do the same thing here in Europe like they do it in america... "Develop", earn their share, let it rot and move few thousand yards away... the result... "suburbs developement".

To close it. I might be a bit ideological on one point anyway. I think that the ultimate concept of "owning" the land (earth) is more a joke than a reality. Yes we can own some rights with respect to the use of the certain area of the land given the sociaty allows us and respects these rights. Thats anyway the notion of any ownership or possesion. The only reson why it is possible to "own" the land is because it is possible to build a fence... same reason why it is not yet possible to own the air...:O.
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Old October 9th, 2010, 06:31 PM   #4643
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Without the interference the Dutch made with mother nature since the 17th century, much of the Netherlands would consist of marshy swamps and large lakes, with a belt of dunes along the North Sea coast. We changed the course of major rivers, built tens of thousand of kilometers of dikes, control the water level from a small stream to a major river, control the water flow of rivers to the sea, we shortened our coast line by 650 kilometers using the Delta Works, which are considered one of the 7 modern wonders of the world, and have generally an extremely high level of control in all aspects of our environment.
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Old October 9th, 2010, 11:29 PM   #4644
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So then, basically, those Dutch Envirowackos are pretty much blowing a lot of hot air in that so precious little of Nederlands is as nature made it. Yes, Nederlands is a very 'green' place, but it is a very un-natural green. Those quaint, touristy windmills? They were built to power the pumps that kept that un-natural land dry.

What percentage of Nederlands' land area is below sea level?

Also, is it possible that we may, within our lifetimes, see the Dutch reclaim even more land from the sea?

Mike
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Old October 9th, 2010, 11:50 PM   #4645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands
The Netherlands is a geographically low-lying country, with about 20% of its area and 21% of its population located below sea level,[8] with 50% of its land lying less than one metre above sea level.[9]
At this time there's one big land reclamation project going on to expand the Port of Rotterdam called the "Tweede Maasvlakte", it's featured in the 10th episode of the 4th season of Build It Bigger from Discovery Science if you're interested. It's an area of about 2.000 hectares, of which 510 hectares of waterways/basins, so 1.490 hectares of land (14,9 sq. km/5,75 sq. mi).

I am not sure of the planning of any more of these projects in the near future for the whole of the country. I do know there's talks about building a new borough of Almere on even more reclaimed land in the future.
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Old October 10th, 2010, 02:20 AM   #4646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgk920 View Post
So then, basically, those Dutch Envirowackos are pretty much blowing a lot of hot air in that so precious little of Nederlands is as nature made it. Yes, Nederlands is a very 'green' place, but it is a very un-natural green. Those quaint, touristy windmills? They were built to power the pumps that kept that un-natural land dry.

What percentage of Nederlands' land area is below sea level?

Also, is it possible that we may, within our lifetimes, see the Dutch reclaim even more land from the sea?

Mike
Well, the coastline has been there since the last Ice Age, so the reclaimed land were the swamps, pet deposits and marshland mostly in the West and Northwest of the country.

Theoretically, it would be quite easy to reclaim land in the Markermeer (which was dammed for that purpose) and at the IJselmeer.

In the south, if the want, they could reclaim all the water bodies in Zeeland, though it would require extensive dike construction in the outlet left to drain the nearby rivers.
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Old October 10th, 2010, 11:39 PM   #4647
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Planen B View Post


At this time there's one big land reclamation project going on to expand the Port of Rotterdam called the "Tweede Maasvlakte"...
Technically this is not reclamation, since this area isn't a part of the country that was lost to the sea in some flood. It's new land which has never before been part of the Netherlands as such.
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Old October 11th, 2010, 01:37 AM   #4648
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I know, I was struggling with that when writing my post, but it seems to be used in this way See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reclamation
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Old October 11th, 2010, 03:12 PM   #4649
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Quote:
Originally Posted by julesstoop View Post
Technically this is not reclamation, since this area isn't a part of the country that was lost to the sea in some flood. It's new land which has never before been part of the Netherlands as such.
Ever heard about Doggerland ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland
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Old October 11th, 2010, 03:26 PM   #4650
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If I'm correct, the term "reclaiming" does not refer to lands once lost to the sea only, but to any new lands claimed from the sea, lakes or rivers.
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Old October 11th, 2010, 03:47 PM   #4651
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Well done, everyone. Finally a foreigner shows some interest in our history and you've scared him away by all this preposterous nitpicking on the exact definition of 'reclamation'.

Now we'll never see Mike again
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Old October 12th, 2010, 11:56 PM   #4652
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Just waitin' for the bridge.

image hosted on flickr
Ketelbrug by Chriszwolle, on Flickr
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Old October 13th, 2010, 01:02 AM   #4653
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I'm curious as to why an open grid steel deck isn't used on movable bridges, not only in the Netherlands, but Europe in general. It would certainly cut down on the weight of the movable span.
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Old October 13th, 2010, 08:24 PM   #4654
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Newly widened A2 between interchange Deil and interchange Everdingen, south of Utrecht. A map is shown in the video for reference.

It is possible to watch this video full-screen as it is recorded in Full HD.

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Old October 13th, 2010, 08:28 PM   #4655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fargo Wolf View Post
I'm curious as to why an open grid steel deck isn't used on movable bridges, not only in the Netherlands, but Europe in general. It would certainly cut down on the weight of the movable span.
Did you ever brake on a 'open grid steel span' ?
I think that's why it isn't used.
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Old October 13th, 2010, 09:05 PM   #4656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Newly widened A2 between interchange Deil and interchange Everdingen, south of Utrecht. A map is shown in the video for reference.

It is possible to watch this video full-screen as it is recorded in Full HD.
Wow, superhighway A2 through Netherlands. I have to try that in some years if the sea has no flooded it before!
And now I have got a better computer so no 240p needed. Although it was there...
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Old October 13th, 2010, 09:09 PM   #4657
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Some pictures of the same section:

1.
image hosted on flickr

A2-13-10-2010-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2.
image hosted on flickr

A2-13-10-2010-2 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3.
image hosted on flickr

A2-13-10-2010-3 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4.
image hosted on flickr

A2-13-10-2010-4 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5.
image hosted on flickr

A2-13-10-2010-5 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6.
image hosted on flickr

A2-13-10-2010-6 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7.
image hosted on flickr

A2-13-10-2010-7 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8.
image hosted on flickr

A2-13-10-2010-8 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

9. Dit autootje reed bij knooppunt Eemnes nog voor me.
image hosted on flickr

A2-13-10-2010-9 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

10.
image hosted on flickr

A2-13-10-2010-10 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

11.
image hosted on flickr

A2-13-10-2010-11 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

12.
image hosted on flickr

A2-13-10-2010-12 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

13.
image hosted on flickr

A2-13-10-2010-13 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

14.
image hosted on flickr

A2-13-10-2010-14 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

15.
image hosted on flickr

A2-13-10-2010-15 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

16.
image hosted on flickr

A2-13-10-2010-16 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

17.
image hosted on flickr

A2-13-10-2010-17 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

18.
image hosted on flickr

A2-13-10-2010-18 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

19.
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A2-13-10-2010-19 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; October 13th, 2010 at 11:26 PM.
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Old October 13th, 2010, 09:11 PM   #4658
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What says the sign at photo 16?
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Old October 13th, 2010, 09:13 PM   #4659
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"wear seatbelts - also in the back seats"

That doesn't apply to me though, as I don't have any back seats
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Old October 15th, 2010, 12:43 AM   #4660
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A render of the widening works of A4 currently in progress. Because the exit Hoofddorp will be relocated, they will build additional C/D lanes, to widen the whole thing from 10 to 14 lanes.

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