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Old December 2nd, 2010, 09:21 AM   #4781
ChrisZwolle
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CDA gets most of their votes from rural areas (a.k.a. "the region") while VVD gets a lot of their votes from commuters.
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Old December 2nd, 2010, 08:44 PM   #4782
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I have bit offtopic question. I need to buy new wintertires (in NL). I bought last year summer tires at www.autobandenmarkt.nl (delti.com) and I considered the price to be fair. Now as I search for the wintertires and at that site is it not really anymore great choice, nor prices. When in generall I compare the Dutch wintertires prices to the prices that I find on german or czech internet shops they are around 50 % overpriced in NL.

Do you know any competitive internet tires retail in NL? Or do you know any such German (international) internet retail that ships to The Netherlands? Thank you.
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Old December 2nd, 2010, 09:48 PM   #4783
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reifen-schreiber.de
(it's a link from: winterreifen.de)

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Wohin liefern Sie?
Wir liefern nach Deutschland und in EU-Länder. EU-Länder außer Österreich im Moment nur per Vorkasse.

Wieviel kostet der Versand?
Der Versandpreis wird im Shop einen Schritt nach dem Warenkorb ausgewiesen. Die angegebenen Preise gelten für Lieferungen innerhalb des deutschen Festlands. Die Preise für EU-Länder finden Sie im Shop wenn Sie das entsprechende Land auswählen. Verpackungskosten entstehen nicht.
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 11:35 AM   #4784
ChrisZwolle
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According to the Dutch transportation association TLN, traffic congestion cost the Dutch trucking industry between € 900 and € 1200 million this year. In 2009, the most expensive traffic jam for trucking was the A2 between Amsterdam and Utrecht: € 19 million.
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 06:19 PM   #4785
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A27 Utrecht

There is some very good news, some € 1.25 billion has been made available for the A12, A27 and N230 in Utrecht.

The A27 will be widened from 8 to 14 lanes, and will be partially covered. The N230 will be built with grade-separated junctions. The A12 will be widened from 10 to 12 lanes.

A27:

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; December 3rd, 2010 at 06:26 PM.
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Old December 4th, 2010, 02:41 PM   #4786
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the only thing this government will be able to reach consensus on is more roads more roads more roads. On any other topic its going to be difficult
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Old December 4th, 2010, 02:43 PM   #4787
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It's more like "wider roads" than "more roads". As far as I know, the new government has not initiated one single kilometer of new motorway.
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Old December 4th, 2010, 02:50 PM   #4788
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It's more like "wider roads" than "more roads". As far as I know, the new government has not initiated one single kilometer of new motorway.
thats just how you explain more roads, widening means more roads in my book. Anyway you get my point
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Old December 4th, 2010, 03:28 PM   #4789
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Building more roads in congested areas is a quick way to improve quality of life of its residents, particularly in a country like Netherlands where more than 60% of its adult population uses the car on a daily basis!
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Old December 4th, 2010, 07:35 PM   #4790
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True, but it has mostly turned out to be only a short-term solution.
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Old December 4th, 2010, 09:20 PM   #4791
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True, but it has mostly turned out to be only a short-term solution.
No, a lot of the recent widening projects will help for decades. But I agree that apart from just widening roads we should also invest in better public transport and stimulate people to live closer to their job or companies to support employees with flex-working and alternative ways of transport.
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Old December 4th, 2010, 09:28 PM   #4792
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companies to support employees with flex-working
I'm wondering what kind of working times you have in mind to avoid traffic jams... Maybe 11 - 19 hrs? I doubt if many people actually want to work outside the 8 - 17 period. The rush hour is already pretty long in the Netherlands, you have to get up real early to avoid it, or get home really late...

The long term changes are population decline, aging of population and a different spatial planning. But then again, many road projects we have now are 20 years overdue. A major problem is to make an accurate traffic estimate. For example, some road sections have been filled to capacity for the last 20 years. This means the actual road demand may be much higher than anticipated. They grossly undercalculated this when they constructed the M25 around London in the 70's and 80's.

Not only do you have to consider the traffic growth for the next 10 - 20 years, but also the demand that already exists, but takes alternate routes or hours. Until recently, procedural time for road projects was 14 years on average. This means that once a project is completed, it was suited for a traffic problem 20 years ago. That is also why a simple widening of 1 extra won't do in some situations.
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Old December 5th, 2010, 01:17 AM   #4793
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Well I think you have to first consider change of the conception of the transportation in general. Since this should be the starting point. When the first motorways came the concept was also completaly new but they came because the then present system did not anymore suffice.
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Old December 5th, 2010, 02:47 AM   #4794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I'm wondering what kind of working times you have in mind to avoid traffic jams... Maybe 11 - 19 hrs?
That would fit me!

But flex-working is not only about shifting working hours. It's also about working places. Many activities do not necessarilly have to take place in the office, but can be done at home. This makes it easier to combine a professional and a family life. We call this "The New Working" (Het nieuwe werken) and it's a very popular topic to talk about at transportation congresses.

By the way, I think the government can do more on reducing the transportation needs for their civil servants. For example, I was temporary working at an agency of the central government last year. It surprised me that many of the employees worked 2 days/week in Utrecht and 3 days/week Groningen, which is a distance of 200 km. The office in Utrecht was hard to reach by public transport, thus encouraging car travel. I wondered if anyone thought about that kind of issues when they planned the organization this way...
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Old December 5th, 2010, 03:53 AM   #4795
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stimulate people to live closer to their job or companies to support employees with flex-working and alternative ways of transport.
This is not that simple as it seems. For the better and for the worse, Netherlands is a multicentric country. People change jobs often nowadays, which is a good thing in a certain way, and they don't restrict their job-searching only to their own towns. Many couples have each partner working in one city, sometimes they live in a city that is neither the workplace of any of them, but somewhere cheaper and less crowded in the middle (think of the cities along A2 between Utrecht and Den Bosch, for instance, and the number of people living there and working in Utrecht, Gouda, Eindhoven, Oss and even Rotterdam).

Hence, the idea of moving people close to their workplace is just not feasible with the workforce mobility we now observe. Indeed, this is a very advantage of Netherlands. It would be valid in a day and age of massive assembly lines factories where people worked their entire lives, but not anymore.

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T
But flex-working is not only about shifting working hours. It's also about working places. Many activities do not necessarilly have to take place in the office, but can be done at home. This makes it easier to combine a professional and a family life. We call this "The New Working" (Het nieuwe werken) and it's a very popular topic to talk about at transportation congresses.
I guess this is some transportation planners overreacting beyond their science field borders. There is extensive literature on Human Resources science that evaluate the importance of face-to-face interaction, and so. Some telecommuting/remote working will is already happening, but it is just an utopia to think that every office job could be displaced to employees' homes. It will not happen, for a variety of reasons. Moreover, not everyone wants or is more productive while working from home.

So, when a transportation planner oversteps her/his boundaries and starts putting these theses as common sense, I balk away. They should be concerned to fit and provide the infrastructure needed by the commuting patterns of a country, not trying to promote workplace engineering to reduce the need of roads, airports and railways as their primary goal.

Quote:
By the way, I think the government can do more on reducing the transportation needs for their civil servants. For example, I was temporary working at an agency of the central government last year. It surprised me that many of the employees worked 2 days/week in Utrecht and 3 days/week Groningen, which is a distance of 200 km. The office in Utrecht was hard to reach by public transport, thus encouraging car travel. I wondered if anyone thought about that kind of issues when they planned the organization this way...
Transportation needs of a company is only one among many factors it considers when choosing a location. Only logistic firms will always take transportation (cargo) accessibility as their number one factor on those decisions. Locations out of reach of public transport are usually cheaper, and allows for expansion when needed. If a government agency is short on money, the decision could well be build/rent cheaper but spacious building on the outskirts or cramping everyone in undersized floors near an office building nearby a NS train station.
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Old December 5th, 2010, 01:23 PM   #4796
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That would fit me!

But flex-working is not only about shifting working hours. It's also about working places. Many activities do not necessarilly have to take place in the office, but can be done at home. This makes it easier to combine a professional and a family life. We call this "The New Working" (Het nieuwe werken) and it's a very popular topic to talk about at transportation congresses.
Exactly, that is what I meant. It would help if people can work a few hours a day at home and go to the office a few hours later or go home a few hours earlier. Maybe they can even work one day a week at home instead of at the office.

If I look at my friends for a lot of them it would be easily possible but it would only require a change of company mentality.

@Suburbanist: I know it's tough to make people live close to their jobs but it's ridiculous that cities like Almere, Culemborg, Purmerend etc grow at the rates they do while they rely on available jobs in other cities. We should shift from suburban expansion to urban expansion and allow more people to live closer to job centers and high quality transport connections. A lot of the traffic jams are caused by the lack of good public transport connections from the suburban towns to where people work.
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Old December 5th, 2010, 01:54 PM   #4797
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Quote:
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@Suburbanist: I know it's tough to make people live close to their jobs but it's ridiculous that cities like Almere, Culemborg, Purmerend etc grow at the rates they do while they rely on available jobs in other cities. We should shift from suburban expansion to urban expansion and allow more people to live closer to job centers and high quality transport connections. A lot of the traffic jams are caused by the lack of good public transport connections from the suburban towns to where people work.
A house in Almere, measured as buying price/m², costs less than 1/3 of the prices in inner Amsterdam, and 1/2 that of houses near - for instance - the Zuidas.

Culemborg is waaay cheaper than Utrecht also! Both Almere and Culemborg have train stations! The question is that workplaces are not near train station and, even when they were, many times it is faster to go by car despite traffic jams.

Let me give you another example: I live very near Tilburg West NS (from next weekend, Tilburg Universiteit). Suppose I'm going to a major office building near the Zuidas, which is very close to Amsterdam Zuid NS. It takes 1h28 most of the times. By car, without congestion, it will take me 1h30.

However, add any other leg to that journey (suppose I didn't live 5-min walking from train station, but - say - in Goirle, or Gilze, or other village nearby) and car becomes more competitive, because from Gilze I'd not have to take a 25-min bus to Tilburg NS, making the total train trip 25 min + 88 min + app. 15 min bus-train connecting waiting time = 127 min

At my workplace (an university), it is very common to have, for demographic reasons (most employees there are well-educated, earn reasonable wages and have working spouses), couples in which each works at a different university. So what should a couple where one works at UvT and other at Erasmus University in Rotterdam do? They live in Breda or other cheaper place near Dordrecht and each one commutes one way! The most extreme "middle-point" commuting I know personally is a couple in which one works here, the other in Zwolle at a technical college and they live in a dorp between Arnhem and Wageningen.

Going out of personal examples, which are never good for generalizations anyway, the fact is: Netherlands have the most dense rail network measured as km/population/area in Europe. Yet, in many cases, even with congestion, it will be FASTER to sit idle in a traffic jam for 10, 20, 30 minutes each day each way than take a combination of bus/tram + train + train + bus/tram, for instance.

Also, many companies cannot afford the high rents that are charged in prime locations like those office complexes near Utrecht Centraal or in Downtown Rotterdam. A major international bank can afford it, a logistics company cannot. Training companies cannot. It is a well-established fact that concentrating offices in clusters of high-density areas drives up floor-area based prices, which puts a burden in many different business.

Then, you need to consider that Netherlands has a higher share of its workforce in industry, which is not a bad thing. You have this policy of setting industrial zones aside from cities, which is sensible. Nobody wants, I guess, to claim back the days in which cities like Hegelo, Heerlen and Arnhem were clogged with industrial plants within residential areas. I can't imagine how hell life in Tilburg would have been when all those textile mills were located near downtown or scattered around residential areas!

Even if industries are "non pollutant", e.g., they do not spill gases or liquids in high amounts nor they do major noise, who would like to go back to the days in which massive trucks collecting industrial waste and delivering raw materials navigated residential streets?

Even in the case of retailing, there are some activities that couldn't afford costs of being all located within reach of train stations or major population areas. IKEA, for instance, would never be so successful if they had to pay prime-location rents. Many outlets the thrift Dutch love can only sprawl themselves in cheaper land.

So, unless people fundamentally changed their minds about what is reasonable or not to travel on a daily basis (essentially, revolving backwards to the day of Netherlands as a poor country where survival, not comfort, was the main worry), there is only so much change in transportation patterns that transit can do. For instance, I doubt that in the inter-war period anyone would consider reasonable to live in Amsterdam and commute daily to work in Den Bosch. Today, it is common, it is a benefit that the Dutch reap for being and living in a developed and rich country.

Put the other way: today, only the very rich can afford private aircrafts to be used on a daily basis. Therefore, almost all folks assume that it would be impossible to commute from Amsterdam to Berlin on a daily basis. You just stick with it: if you live here and get a goof job offer in Berlin, you will have to move, and if you have reasons to be here, will need to speed a decent amount of money to travel each weekend at expense of your weekend rest. Maybe in 2080 they will have some form of mass-marketed battery-powered aircraft that will enable 1000km daily commutes. The idea might sound strange and wasteful as of today, but I bet that when the automobile was introduced, the very idea of living in the (by then) few very big cities in the West end and working in the East end 30km apart was not conceived. You'd grab a job at a major assembly line, steel mill or other massive industrial enterprise and stick to it for life, which would mean taking a house near the workplace and living a boring and unrewarding life where most of your neighbors would also be your co-workers.

Now how would be that good, to meet in the park with your baby stroll or in the local supermarket the same people you meet at your workplace... Life must have been way too boring back then.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 01:28 AM   #4798
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So what you basically say is that it doesn't matter that cities that rely entirely on job centers in other cities, or other areas of the country even, grow huge while putting enormous pressure on our infrastructure instead of shifting focus of development and growth to the established job centers?

Quote:
A house in Almere, measured as buying price/m², costs less than 1/3 of the prices in inner Amsterdam, and 1/2 that of houses near - for instance - the Zuidas.
This is comparing apples with bananas. Almere can only be compared with 'de Westelijke Tuinsteden' or 'de Bijlmer', there you can find houses with the same price/m² and still live way closer to your job than in Almere. Not only that, you also live closer to shopping, entertainment and leisure. Putting less pressure on the infrastructure in the weekends and holidays as well. Additional expansion of yet established parts of Amsterdam / Rotterdam or most other big cities can easily be connected to high quality bus, tram, subway and train networks allowing people who live there multiple means of public transport to get to their job, shopping, entertainment and leisure. Compared to just one station that has no sufficient parking or fast and high frequency feeder lines in the suburban towns.

I won't respond to the rest of your reply as it is highly inconsistent, contains a lot of assumptions and is completely irrelevant to what I said before.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 01:40 AM   #4799
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It seems you hate the VINEX and new cities. I agree Almere needs more jobs, not Amsterdam needs more residents.

Moreover, much more of Dutch drive to work than take trains or buses anyway.

I'm not an expert in the Randstad, but as far as I know Almere doesn't have 10% of the bad reputation of the Biljmer area, arguably one of the worst in Netherlands as some say.

Where, in Amsterdam, can you find a house that is not detached but at least have a private garden, 130m², 3 bedrooms, for less than € 250.000?
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Old December 7th, 2010, 12:51 AM   #4800
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But I agree that apart from just widening roads we should also invest in better public transport and stimulate people to live closer to their job or companies to support employees with flex-working and alternative ways of transport.
I don't agree. Instead of pumping billions of euros in PT and forcing millions of people to live in narrow condos, it's far better (and in the long run also cheaper) to stimulate relocation of working areas to the places people live...
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