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Old November 4th, 2007, 11:35 AM   #501
KIWIKAAS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
^ Nice city bypass! Although I don't like those curves at the beginning. Dutch motorways look quite expensive/qualitative.
Are you talking about those bits in the construction zone where the road goes a bit to the left then back to the right?
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Old November 4th, 2007, 01:03 PM   #502
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Originally Posted by vari karin View Post
wat was the top speed you guys went in that video?
Not very fast. The A2 section is a construction site, mostly 100km/h or lower. The A12 section has an 80km/h limit ( ) with automated stretch control, which means they take a pic of your plate, and when you exit the motorway, they calculate if you drove too fast. 100% guaranteed fine if you drive 1km too fast. There are multiple stretch controls in the Netherlands, and it has nothing to do with traffic safety or air quality, just easy cashing for the police.
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Old November 4th, 2007, 03:41 PM   #503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KIWIKAAS View Post
Are you talking about those bits in the construction zone where the road goes a bit to the left then back to the right?
Yes. So it's just a construction site? Good.
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Old November 6th, 2007, 10:55 PM   #504
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The detours they make in case of an accident or motorway closure are sometimes ridiculous... They insist people keep on the motorway instead of crawling through local roads. Take a look at this;

Quote:
A37 Hoogeveen - Knooppunt Holsloot
ter hoogte van knp. Hoogeveen
[!]omleiding ingesteld in verband met ongevalsonderzoek
Verkeer richting Duitsland volg Groningen (A28 en A7)
It says;
A37 Hoogeveen - Knooppunt Holsloot
at interchange Hoogeveen
detour in effect because of an accident investigation
Traffic in the direction Germany follow Groningen (A28 and A7)

When you are travelling to the area of Meppen (where most traffic on the A37 is heading for), this means you don't have to drive 50km via the normal route, but 166 kilometer via Groningen and Leer

That's an increase of over 300% of route length! And it's not like the A37 is a busy motorway so local roads can't take it. At night, like now, the motorway there is virtually empty. This motorway has the lowest AADT of all motorways, around 7200 vehicles per day...
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Old November 7th, 2007, 06:16 AM   #505
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Nice highways.

EDIT: Chris, where's Zwolle?
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Old November 7th, 2007, 12:33 PM   #506
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Originally Posted by rick1016 View Post
Nice highways.

EDIT: Chris, where's Zwolle?
Here is Zwolle








nah, just kidding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwolle
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Old November 7th, 2007, 07:15 PM   #507
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nice video chris.

it's gonna be a big highway for european standars there.
P.S I live less than 1 km from that ugly soundwall in Maaarssen
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Old November 7th, 2007, 07:57 PM   #508
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PL: Zwolle około 99 tys. mieszkańców. and: Ludność (2005) 111 947
FR: Au 1er juin 2005 Zwolle comptait 110 947 habitants.
RU: Зволле (нидерл. Zwolle) По состоянию на 1 июня 2005 года население составляло 112 460 жителей.
FIN: Zwolle Vuonna 2006 siellä oli 113 668 asukasta.
SP: Zwolle labon belödanis 114 544 (2006).
Esperanto: Zwolle har 114.544 invånare (januari 2007)
DE: Zwolle, das im März 2007 den 115.000. Einwohner zählen konnte.
NL: Zwolle De gemeente telt 115.144 inwoners (1 juni 2007)

Still growing. Is this city made of rubber or what?

Edit: this is consistent: Polish wikipedia says in one article: 99 tys (=99.000) and 111.947.
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Last edited by pmaciej7; November 7th, 2007 at 08:56 PM.
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Old November 7th, 2007, 08:31 PM   #509
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Unlike other countries, Dutch cities can check their population anytime they want, it's always up to date, we don't need censuses or something. And Zwolle is still growing, 135.000 in 2020 projections. Not a very large city though, but it is seen as the gateway to the north. The only way to Groningen or Friesland by train is through Zwolle.

Traffic is increasing quite fast too. There is a large commute to Zwolle, because of it's regional function (unlike cities as the larger Apeldoorn or Almere, which are more suburban).
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Old November 8th, 2007, 09:45 PM   #510
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I have a feeling that in 20 years, the Netherlands will become one huge suburb with endless traffic jams...
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Old November 8th, 2007, 09:48 PM   #511
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Today there was 497 km of queue around 1800 hrs, and that's only the motorways... There is a lot of non-reported traffic jams inside cities.

The radio usually only reports traffic jams over 10km on days like this.
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Old November 8th, 2007, 09:51 PM   #512
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I'd seriously consider using PT, if I were a Dutch. Isn't it effective too?

Last edited by Verso; November 8th, 2007 at 10:01 PM.
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Old November 8th, 2007, 09:56 PM   #513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
I have a feeling that in 20 years, the Netherlands will become one huge suburb with endless traffic jams...
I've read an article in daily Slovak Pravda which says that many Dutch pensioners are buying houses in Southern Slovakia, the article was about village Bulharské. They say they feel more comfotable here than in Netherland which is overpopulated with heavy traffic and high prices in comparation with Slovakia. So maybe in 20 years will be in Netherland less people than now.
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Old November 8th, 2007, 10:06 PM   #514
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I'd seriously consider about using PT, if I were a Dutch. Isn't it effective too?
No, the problem is too big to handle for public transportation.

Firstly, almost no capacity was added since 1985, while the population grew with 2 million, and more and more new neighborhoods were build away from jobs. Hence the huge traffic flows.

Secondly, a lot of people live in numerous villages, which used to be farm villages, but now working completely in the nearby larger city. This is too widespread to effectively serve with public transportation.

Public transportation handles 10 times less traffic as roads. It already has to face problems with a 7% growth rate, and it already costs 2 billion annually, the same budget for road, but only 10% of the traffic, hence the expensive public transportation. If you even will have 5 times less traffic in PT as on roads, it means ridership will increase over 500%.

This is totally impossible to handle for public transportation. Trains are already overcrowded, and Dutch railways are among the busiest in the world, and faces numerous problems with the current 7% growth, it needs huge investment. You can imagine how extremely much money it will cost if ridership increases with 500%!

It means we have to rethink the whole concept of public transportation. It would costs tens of billions of euro's more annually, something we just don't have the money for. Unlike eastern european countries, we are not a net reciever of EU funds. Our resources are much less than eastern european countries.

The problem is job locations are too centered, while it's unnecessary with current communications, to build high density office parks (however it does create a nice skyline ).
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Old November 8th, 2007, 10:14 PM   #515
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^ I know PT can't be effective for everyone, but what about for those living in cities? You don't need a car within cities. I love driving car and I reach my faculty in just 10 minutes, but then I can wait up to an hour to get a free parking. And even in the garage I usually have to search quite long to find a free parking space. And pay for it after I leave.
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Old November 8th, 2007, 10:21 PM   #516
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Buses are usually very slow. I calculated if i would go by bus, it would take me 7,5 workweek of extra time anually, that's just unacceptable. Though a lot of people take their bicycle to work. People tend to take their bikes for trips up to 7,5km. With the increasing number suburban areas away from the job locations, car-riderships increases dramatically. And last but not least, it rains pretty often here, so people logically take their car moreoften when it rains. The total amount of traffic jams is sometimes 2 times higher then normal when it rains.

And also, almost every 100.000+ city functions as a regional center for the rural (but not farmland) area's, creating quite large flows towards the city, and the road system in the cities often date back from the time there were almost no cars. There are always huge flows towards the motorways and suburban areas away from the city centers. (like the suburban area i live in, it attracts way more traffic as other neighborhoods).

Another interesting fact is, that the number of one-person-households, and households with two people earning money from a job, increases, so more and more people have 2 cars, because mrs. works in place A and mr. works in place B. They both live in place C. You do the math...
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Old November 8th, 2007, 10:29 PM   #517
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^ Yeah, that's why I don't use PT much.
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Old November 8th, 2007, 11:14 PM   #518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
Buses are usually very slow. I calculated if i would go by bus, it would take me 7,5 workweek of extra time anually, that's just unacceptable. Though a lot of people take their bicycle to work. People tend to take their bikes for trips up to 7,5km. With the increasing number suburban areas away from the job locations, car-riderships increases dramatically. And last but not least, it rains pretty often here, so people logically take their car moreoften when it rains. The total amount of traffic jams is sometimes 2 times higher then normal when it rains.

And also, almost every 100.000+ city functions as a regional center for the rural (but not farmland) area's, creating quite large flows towards the city, and the road system in the cities often date back from the time there were almost no cars. There are always huge flows towards the motorways and suburban areas away from the city centers. (like the suburban area i live in, it attracts way more traffic as other neighborhoods).

Another interesting fact is, that the number of one-person-households, and households with two people earning money from a job, increases, so more and more people have 2 cars, because mrs. works in place A and mr. works in place B. They both live in place C. You do the math...
You would believe that a area-constrained country like the Netherlands was planning a bit more carefully instead of creating a US-like suburbia, which make efficient public transport so much harder. In Norway, densification is pursued in urban areas rather than increasing the city areas.
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Old November 9th, 2007, 12:11 AM   #519
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Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
Buses are usually very slow. I calculated if i would go by bus, it would take me 7,5 workweek of extra time anually, that's just unacceptable.
Dutch authorities should look more into BRT, I realize space can be tight for building separate lanes in build up areas (though dedicated bus lines can often be combined bicycle lanes) but how are they planning for future cities and neighbourhoods?

Last edited by SmarterChild; November 9th, 2007 at 12:27 AM.
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Old November 9th, 2007, 12:17 AM   #520
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sigh.......another 500 kilometers of traffic jams this evening......... :-(
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