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Old November 9th, 2007, 12:42 PM   #521
KIWIKAAS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
You would believe that a area-constrained country like the Netherlands was planning a bit more carefully instead of creating a US-like suburbia, which make efficient public transport so much harder. In Norway, densification is pursued in urban areas rather than increasing the city areas.
The Netherlands has very stricht zoning and development rules. There is no US style suburban sprawl in the Netherlands. Dutch cities are generally dense in nature. It's the inter-urban commuting that causes the most jams. When travelling within a Dutch city traffic is generally reasonably light. It's the connectors to the national highway network that get jammed up and of course the highway system itsself.
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Old November 9th, 2007, 06:03 PM   #522
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You would believe that a area-constrained country like the Netherlands was planning a bit more carefully instead of creating a US-like suburbia, which make efficient public transport so much harder.
New living areas are build up quite wide, indeed. The demands are getting bigger, though. More families with children don't accept anymore to live in some small houses or apartments, for a lot of money, in the old parts of the city. They want nice places to live with enough space for a garden, green areas in the neighbourhood, safe roads and last but not least: parking. That causes the lesser density and so the difficulty to make good PT. But that's just the fact, we got to deal with it.

Still PT is well-used here, and not as bad as some suggest. About 15% uses PT. Don't forget the influence of the huge bicycle system here. In other countries they would use PT a lot more on distances we would easily do on bike. But most bus and intercity train connections are relatively fast. At least, busdrivers do everything they can to handle the driving times (some of them drive quite aggressively), but it's quite difficult sometimes because of e.g. round-abouts, bad adjusted traffic lights, speed bumps, etc...
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Old November 9th, 2007, 06:49 PM   #523
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I take the bus every day and I don't really have any problem. It is not like PT is in a bad state here, I find it pretty good actually (at least the area I travel).
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Old November 9th, 2007, 06:51 PM   #524
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New living areas are build up quite wide, indeed. The demands are getting bigger, though.
Not really, i doubt if the current VINEX neighborhoods are actually larger then 80's neighborhoods.

Otherwise then suggested, Dutch VINEX neighborhoods are nothing like American suburban sprawl.
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Old November 9th, 2007, 06:53 PM   #525
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I take the bus every day and I don't really have any problem. It is not like PT is in a bad state here, I find it pretty good actually (at least the area I travel).
The bus is quite okay for suburban-to-central station-drives. Taking the bicycle is often faster though. But unlike American cities, much of the jobs aren't in the historical center, but on industrial parks or office parks near a major road, with too many traffic lights.

I don't get it, some roads are very congested, yet they continue to build new offices along it. It only worsens the problems.
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Old November 9th, 2007, 06:53 PM   #526
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True and most new neighbourhoods are connected to PT anyway, it's the problem that it's hardly used. But as far as I know 80's neighborhoods are pretty dense, at least the one I lived in.
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Old November 10th, 2007, 12:48 AM   #527
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When PT is slower than a car then PT is just badly planned and that's it. If you look at Stockholm for example that has suburbs with quite low density, you can see that PT is still widely used and it's faster than a car. That's how it should be everywhere. I'm not denieing that there are jobs where you just need a car, but when one just goes to the office in the morning and comes back in the evening, why would he/she need a car?
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Old November 10th, 2007, 01:05 AM   #528
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PT is only faster when more people(meaning cars in this context) use the roads than their capacity,thus creating jams. If the road is empty,no PT can beat a car. Optimal would be equal speed,but that means there are jams. There will be jams as long as there are cars,because when people see empty roads,they will change to cars. So it start again. So in the end,only a jammed city's PT can beat the cars.
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Old November 10th, 2007, 12:01 PM   #529
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When PT is slower than a car then PT is just badly planned and that's it. If you look at Stockholm for example that has suburbs with quite low density, you can see that PT is still widely used and it's faster than a car. That's how it should be everywhere. I'm not denieing that there are jobs where you just need a car, but when one just goes to the office in the morning and comes back in the evening, why would he/she need a car?
Here they slow down the speed of cars, to make PT look faster, however it´s speed doesn´t increase.

Buses have free lanes, right-of-way at traffic lights, but are still slower. They don't take the fastest route, because the buse logically wants to serve people, so a longer route is taken to serve as many potential as possible.

In my opinion, sometimes it looks buses are only made for suburb-to-central-station routes, and not for suburbs-to-job-locations routes. No wonder why nobody uses the bus.

suburb-to-suburb is also not a very good option often, because you have to go to the central bus/trainstation first.

In my possible bus route, i have to walk 20 minutes to a bus station first from my job. Outside rushhours, i am already home then. From my suburb to the largest office park 8km away is 45 minutes by bus. And to the other large industrial park is also 45 minutes.

But that's not only it, you have to take the time into account you have to leave early to make it in time on your job, to compare correctly with the bicycle or car. You can easily add another 10 - 15minutes then to the total travel time.

If i have to start on my job at 9.00 am, i have to leave at 7.50 am. thats 1 hour and 10 minutes... If i go by car, i can leave at 8.35 am. That is 45 minutes time difference one-way! So it's just a waste of your spare time. Ofcourse, that doesn't count for everyone, but for enough people to see overcrowded roads.
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Old November 10th, 2007, 01:07 PM   #530
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And that's what I mean by "badly planned".

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PT is only faster when more people(meaning cars in this context) use the roads than their capacity,thus creating jams. If the road is empty,no PT can beat a car. Optimal would be equal speed,but that means there are jams. There will be jams as long as there are cars,because when people see empty roads,they will change to cars. So it start again. So in the end,only a jammed city's PT can beat the cars.
Yes, true, but within the city it's almost impossible and absolutely ridiculous to build enough motorways or wide roads for jams to disappear. Of course, if you live outside the city and work outside the city, PT is no solution.

And then there's the climate issue....I think it's pretty difficult for dutchies to say that it doesn't matter.
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Old November 10th, 2007, 01:41 PM   #531
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Quote:
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And that's what I mean by "badly planned".
Yeah, but how would you solute it? There's not enough demand for a more dense (imo it's already quite dense) busnetwork. You need to concentrate pessengers to keep it payable. That's also one of the reasons why we don't have much urban rail. The current railways take a lot of the demands for people who want to travel by PT, even on distances of just a few km's. The number of railway stations is growing, and overtakes more and more the function of local bus services. That's a good thing, imo. Most people use a bike to go to the nearest station, so travel times become lesser with those new stations.
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Old November 10th, 2007, 01:51 PM   #532
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A lot of tramlines,with 52m long trams?
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Old November 10th, 2007, 01:53 PM   #533
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Yeah, but how would you solute it?
Instead of dozens of buslines going straight to the centre, I'd suggest buses taking people to the nearest tram or train stop and from there to the centre.
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Old November 10th, 2007, 02:13 PM   #534
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You don't get it. City centres are mostly good to get to with PT. The main trainstations in Holland are almost always very near the centre: let's say, less then 10 minutes walking. The problem is that a lot of people simply don't work in city centres, or people live in a quite rural places which are bad connected with PT (or even worse: both). Those are the problems which makes PT unattractive for most of the people so they take, despite of all the traffic jams, still the car... (or bike)
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Old November 10th, 2007, 03:59 PM   #535
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Frankly, if anyone solves this problem, I give him a gold medal.
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Old November 11th, 2007, 02:40 AM   #536
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The 'Bundled Deconcentration' housing and community program, as was proposed in the 1960's, created a high number of viable medium density habitable areas outside of major cities and into the former agricultural parts of the country. This was coupled with a highly ambitious freeway plan, way more than the 2300~km there is now.

The housing part was executed, the freeway part only partially. Afterwards, politicians blamed underdeveloped PT to rising traffic problems and sought to overemphasize PT in spending bills. This while the existing PT network was pretty much functional in the old city-centric environment but could never be adapted to the highly deconcentrated living/working environment that began to emerge.

As seen in certain US cities, where grid-like freeway systems (or at least an attempt to create such a thing) exist, suburban to suburban commutes (for the lack of a better description of what is happening in Holland) are probably best served by a very dense road network. The belated realization of such a network is, at the present time, a politically unacceptable option. Until the harsh reality of a gridlocked economy sets in of course, which should have happened yesterday rather than tomorrow.
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Old November 11th, 2007, 03:22 AM   #537
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Looks like Netherlands made the same mistake of creating autocentric sprawl like what the U.S did except for wide freeways.
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Old November 11th, 2007, 03:42 AM   #538
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Quote:
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A2 near Utrecht

Also a section of the A12 near Utrecht.

I hope to shoot a video of the N7 expressway in Groningen tomorrow
I don't know if it will work out, since my friend has a new car, i don't know if i can put the camera on the dashboard properly.
For the sake of god, could you pleeeeeeeease choose some mroe neutral music? I aktually want watch the videos.
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Old November 11th, 2007, 01:57 PM   #539
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If I were in charge, no one would have to put up with insulting.
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Old November 11th, 2007, 02:12 PM   #540
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For the sake of god, could you pleeeeeeeease choose some mroe neutral music? I aktually want watch the videos.
mute?
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