daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old May 4th, 2011, 01:05 PM   #5421
snowdog
Speed freak
 
snowdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Capelle ad ijssel
Posts: 969
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
However, your health insurance contributions would rise five or six fold.
For healthy people? I doubt it, for the ones heavily (ab)using the system yeah, people who are more of a health risk should pay far more like in the UK, afaik now most people pay the same for the (most)basic insurance.

Longer life expectancy is only bad for the working... More people to pay tax for, imho health is fine as it is and they shouldn't get more money for now.
Quote:
Education fees would be through the roof.
Agree with you on this point, everyone sohuld be able to finish higher education if they want to without making too much debt... Education is a good investment ( unlike health, which is only costing money, the sooner people die after 65, the better). However, I am also of the opinion, that manly primary and secondary schools get more than enough, my last school upgraded their building nearly every 3 years, they have loads to spare, they spent it on rubbish like ''smartboards'' even though a classic blackboard is fine, my primary school also expanded in the past 10 years. And it's been in the news that they often have lots of spare money. Also the free school books idea is rubbish, it was fine like it was, sure it was a hit for parents but now everyone pays for them + extra for all the bureaucracy and bureaucracy = wasted money.
Quote:
And what to think of food? Those huge subsidies for our farms have to come from somewhere. If they only had to come from food VAT, we'd all be vegetarians and very skinny.
No, we'd simply import more food, but while food prices would rise a bit, it would still be easily affordable. I mean come on, some people have more than 1 car, they CAN save money on many luxuries to pay a bit more for food, we aren't some country in poverty.

Quote:
dislike this type of display of statistics. Especially when it's followed by people using it as an argument to increase spending on road infrastructure.
Increasing the spending on road infra will likely in the long run increase income from drivers too though. If I was in charge I'd more than triple the road infra budget, even raise taxes for it if neccesary, but primarily get the money from all the pointless subsidies ( like for the environment, ''tax free'' cars, ''free school books'', and the money that goes abroad, perfect sources of money that should be pumped into new roads.)


Chris's statistics show perfectly that for the government, investing is roads is FAR better than crappy public transport, which only costs money. They should invest it in roads, which they will guaranteed get back from drivers.
Now there is a need for public transport, but cars get too little attention for what they provide. The drivers pay for a lot but only get bullying back from the government ( speed traps, extra taxes, speedbumps, etc). We don't live in a world where people WANT to use Public transport over driving most of the time, unlike what Groenlinks thinks .

Last edited by snowdog; May 4th, 2011 at 01:19 PM.
snowdog no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old May 4th, 2011, 01:20 PM   #5422
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,464
Likes (Received): 6164

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Sure, but the discrepancy nowadays is incredible. And still people dare to argue the motorist taxes do not nearly cover the cost of roads or public transport is not getting enough money compared to roads
That's an equally nonsensical argument.

Quote:
So I don't think you can simply dismiss it as "this is not how our tax system works". You want to see results from your taxes. Especially since roads are a marginally € 3 billion on our € 250 billion government budget.
I just think it's the wrong angle for this argument.

We've got some serious traffic jam problems: that's proof our road network isn't up to the task of handling today's traffic. So we should look at the problems at hand (which roads have the biggest problems and why?) and solve them.

This arguing over general tax incomes is just besides the point. Both sides abuse the argument which doesn't help anyone.
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 4th, 2011, 01:20 PM   #5423
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,507
Likes (Received): 2116

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
For healthy people? I doubt it, for the ones heavily (ab)using the system yeah, people who are more of a health risk should pay far more like in the UK, afaik now most people pay the same for the (most)basic insurance.
What you're asking for is "survival of the fittest". I don't think that in a modern democracy this is the way things should be going. Everyone pays for the whole system, is the only way to avoid the unjust difference "richest people get better health care".
g.spinoza está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old May 4th, 2011, 01:31 PM   #5424
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,464
Likes (Received): 6164

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
For healthy people? I doubt it, for the ones heavily (ab)using the system yeah, people who are more of a health risk should pay far more like in the UK, afaik now most people pay the same for the (most)basic insurance.

Longer life expectancy is only bad for the working... More people to pay tax for, imho health is fine as it is and they shouldn't get more money for now.
I don't want to get into a debate on health care insurance, it's wildly off-topic here.

The point I was trying to make is that our income-expenditure system isn't categorized. If our current health care system would only be paid for by a "health care tax", that health care tax would be huge. That was my point.
So while road tax would be considerably less expensive if road tax revenues were only used for road infrastructure works, other things would become much more expensive.

Quote:
Agree with you on this point, everyone sohuld be able to finish higher education if they want to without making too much debt... Education is a good investment ( unlike health, which is only costing money, the sooner people die after 65, the better). However, I am also of the opinion, that manly primary and secondary schools get more than enough, my last school upgraded their building nearly every 3 years, they have loads to spare, they spent it on rubbish like ''smartboards'' even though a classic blackboard is fine, my primary school also expanded in the past 10 years. And it's been in the news that they often have lots of spare money. Also the free school books idea is rubbish, it was fine like it was, sure it was a hit for parents but now everyone pays for them + extra for all the bureaucracy and bureaucracy = wasted money.


No, we'd simply import more food, but while food prices would rise a bit, it would still be easily affordable. I mean come on, some people have more than 1 car, they CAN save money on many luxuries to pay a bit more for food, we aren't some country in poverty.


Increasing the spending on road infra will likely in the long run increase income from drivers too though. If I was in charge I'd more than triple the road infra budget, even raise taxes for it if neccesary, but primarily get the money from all the pointless subsidies ( like for the environment, ''tax free'' cars, ''free school books'', and the money that goes abroad, perfect sources of money that should be pumped into new roads.)


Chris's statistics show perfectly that for the government, investing is roads is FAR better than crappy public transport, which only costs money. They should invest it in roads, which they will guaranteed get back from drivers.
Now there is a need for public transport, but cars get too little attention for what they provide. The drivers pay for a lot but only get bullying back from the government ( speed traps, extra taxes, speedbumps, etc). We don't live in a world where people WANT to use Public transport over driving most of the time, unlike what Groenlinks thinks .
You're being a little extreme here. Importing food is risky, countries still use it as a weapon (something we tend to forget in utopian Europe). Even if it's not consciously used as a weapon, it still leaves food-importing countries in a risky state of dependence. When forest fires swept across Russia last summer destroying many crops, the first thing the Russian government did was put a ban on grain exports. And that fire was a relatively minor event.

Education, meanwhile, is a cornerstone of modern society. The countries that out-teach us today, will out-perform us tomorrow. Many Asian countries have superior education systems to many Western states including the Netherlands, something I got to see with my own eyes when I worked for the government a while ago and we had a project on the subject. Education is currently either wrongly or under-financed in Europe. Attacking "free school books" is about as helpful as bringing an umbrella to a raging hurricane in the greater scheme of things.

As for Public Transport: I think you'll find it's necessary. Hate it all you want; but if all the people who took the bus to work today would instead have driven a car, you'd still be in a traffic jam somewhere right now. It's unmissable for the simple reason that there are too many people and they can't all drive cars. You need buses.
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 4th, 2011, 02:07 PM   #5425
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
As for Public Transport: I think you'll find it's necessary. Hate it all you want; but if all the people who took the bus to work today would instead have driven a car, you'd still be in a traffic jam somewhere right now. It's unmissable for the simple reason that there are too many people and they can't all drive cars. You need buses.
The misconception is that not every train / bus traveler would have otherwise been a car driver. Many people think that way, but the share of so-called "choice travelers", those who have readiness access to a car everyday but travel public transport, is very limited.

You need public transport in cities and for the reasons you pointed out in the last section. It's a social form of transport. People who cannot drive for whichever reason. The debate could be about how much absolute priority buses need to get. Municipal / provincial policymakers tend to think that more people take the bus instead of a car if it doesn't have to wait a traffic light.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 4th, 2011, 02:09 PM   #5426
snowdog
Speed freak
 
snowdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Capelle ad ijssel
Posts: 969
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
I

You're As for Public Transport: I think you'll find it's necessary. Hate it all you want; but if all the people who took the bus to work today would instead have driven a car, you'd still be in a traffic jam somewhere right now. It's unmissable for the simple reason that there are too many people and they can't all drive cars. You need buses.
Yeah, but if people take the bus they cost more money... If they took the car, we'd not have to pay so much tax or have more money to spend.

But, of course, this goes at the cost of valuable space and arguably public health( nosie and air pollution from cars)...

I don't have too much against trains, or metros, but I absolutely loathe buses and bus lanes, complete and utter waste of money, if they could make a profit, okay, but they don't...

The simple fact remains that cars are bringing in money, a lot more than the roads cost, while public transport costs loads of money. Especially buses.

Last edited by snowdog; May 4th, 2011 at 02:21 PM.
snowdog no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 4th, 2011, 02:20 PM   #5427
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,507
Likes (Received): 2116

Profit? It's a service. Services needn't make money.
g.spinoza está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old May 4th, 2011, 02:23 PM   #5428
snowdog
Speed freak
 
snowdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Capelle ad ijssel
Posts: 969
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Profit? It's a service. Services needn't make money.
I always saw public transport as companies which are intended to make a profit. In fact I only recently discovered how much they're losing and how crap buses fare compared to metro systems for example.

Anyhow, the government should encourage the form of transport that gives them more money, seeing they spend more than they earn now. Simple.


The government priority should be : Safety, finance(economy), infrastructure, and education.
Anything else should be a 2nd priority.

Last edited by snowdog; May 4th, 2011 at 02:28 PM.
snowdog no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 4th, 2011, 02:23 PM   #5429
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
There are the following government expenses:

* public transport & rail infrastructure € 5.0 billion
* construction and maintenance of roads and bridges: € 3.0 billion

Then there is the following modal split:

* public transport: 22 billion passenger km (7.8%)
* car: 150 billion passenger km (87.2%)

Government investment per 1 billion passenger kilometers;

* public transport / rail: € 227 million
* car transport: € 20 million
This comparison is quite useless as not all traffic (in the sense of transportations needs) requires the same money.

Inhabitants in not densely populated area travelling a lot of km may generate a lot of pax*km but do not need a lot of investment, while the same number of pax*km in a city would require more investments.

For example:
3.000 people doing 40 km in remote areas on many different roads in an hour are 120.000 pax*km
12.000 people doing 10 km in urban areas in an hour are again 120.000 pax*km

In the first case there is no need of new infrastrutures, existing two-lane roads are enough (plus some buses for people withour car).
In the second case a tramway or even a metro line are needed (or a 2x3 motorway plus parkings, which is really space consuming ==> not the best choice in some cases).

Comparisons should be made on comparable things, like central Amsterdam-central Rotterdam.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; May 4th, 2011 at 10:51 PM.
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 4th, 2011, 02:36 PM   #5430
snowdog
Speed freak
 
snowdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Capelle ad ijssel
Posts: 969
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
This comparison is quite useless as not all traffic (in the sense of transportations needs) requires the same money.

Inhabitants in not densely populated area travelling a lot of km may generate a lot of pax*km but do not need a lot of investment, while the same number of pax*km in a city would require more investments.
Then they need to pay more for it imho. Living in a city is a choice, if it costs society more money, then the people in cities must cough that up.
Quote:

snip example

In the first case there is no need of new infrastrutures, existing two-lane roads are enough (plus some buses for people withour car).
In the second case a tramway or even a metro line are needed (or a 2x3 motorway plus parkings, which is really space consuming ==> not the best choice in some cases).

Comparisons should be made on comparable things, like central Amsterdam-central Rotterdam.
You haven't been to Holland ? Even rural roads or 2x3 motorways in the middle of farmland are congested... 30 years of neglect to infrastructure. If there was only a problem on local city roads then it would be different, but the problem is country wide, A LOT of motorways, even in rural areas, used for longer distance travel, are constantly congested, they also have extremely high traffic levels for a 2x2 road which are theoretically not possible when holding a safe distance. The amount of cars has grown but infrastructure hasn't.

Tramlines are fine if they go on roads imho, but waste of space of they have space reserved exclusively for themselves, if you build a tramline you might as well use it as an extra car lane imho. But I don't like ''cosy'' small packed cities, a city should be built with enough space, enough parking, if you want a high density then skyscrapers with underground parking and wide roads at ground level.

Haha, Amsterdam is a complete disaster for cars, Rotterdam isn't perfect but likely the best larger city in Holland for cars.
snowdog no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 4th, 2011, 02:39 PM   #5431
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2155

I am allways really sorry to read stuff like I read from snowdog. It gives me goose skin to realize that the brainwashing of neoliberal bullshit is so deeply spred around the population, that even people with some education in economics are so deep in the dark. If they just read e.g. Adam Smith they would realize that the liberty of a person to choose goes hand in hand with a sympathy. Further on they should realize what are so called public goods and what are so called externalities. Third thing I would suggest is to look into game theory and just try to figure out the simplest case of prisoners dilemma. Anyway call for sort of "private" health system where the costs are paid proportionally to the real costs of given subjects, from anyone outside the top 10 richest in the population, is plain stupidity.

Now on the road tax, tax in general, note. The taxes are in the first place a tool of redistribution. It is no wonder that the taxes collected in one sector of the economy are used in another. The system of national highway network made the whole automobile sector possible. If this system was left to be build up only by a private sector, without the authority of the state interfering, there would simply be none.

Lets look into the history. The roads and especially main trade routes were allways very good source of government (or local authority) income. But that was completaly understandable. Without a fort on the river ford, or in the narrow valley, the trade on the route would not be thinkable. The local authority thus collected the excess fee just because it granted the possibility of safely using the road. The fee was certainly not primarily used on making the road bigger, faster, better. It was used mainly to strengten the authority that collected the fee. The border duties are just another side of the same coin.

I dont want to argue here if the current ratio of reinvestment of the transport related taxes in the NL is too low or whatever. I was merely pissed by the logic that snowdog tried to use to argue on this issue. Lets face it, ideal neoliberal country is Somalia, you dont have to pay any taxes...

Last edited by Surel; May 4th, 2011 at 02:45 PM.
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 4th, 2011, 02:51 PM   #5432
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2155

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
You haven't been to Holland ? Even rural roads or 2x3 motorways in the middle of farmland are congested... 30 years of neglect to infrastructure. If there was only a problem on local city roads then it would be different, but the problem is country wide, A LOT of motorways, even in rural areas, used for longer distance travel, are constantly congested, they also have extremely high traffic levels for a 2x2 road which are theoretically not possible when holding a safe distance. The amount of cars has grown but infrastructure hasn't.
Haha, Amsterdam is a complete disaster for cars, Rotterdam isn't perfect but likely the best larger city in Holland for cars.

I can understand this. But this is not a problem of underinvestment in current road infrastructure. This is problem on yet non existence new infrastructure of totally new concept and underinvestment in that new concept. (chariot, train, tram, car, next => new generation transportation system). In my oppinion, the congestion problem will be solved only by completaly new system of private/public transportation that will merge these two into one system.
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 4th, 2011, 02:51 PM   #5433
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,507
Likes (Received): 2116

Ok now we're deeply off topic. Can we stay on topic please?
g.spinoza está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old May 4th, 2011, 03:12 PM   #5434
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,536
Likes (Received): 21249

My greatest concern is that most European governments, bowing to environwackos, have to treat highway construction, particularly heavy construction (new alignments, urban loops, serious widening) as almost a "necessary evil" that we have to "tolerate" instead of a positive stuff to have built and enrich the country.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old May 4th, 2011, 10:21 PM   #5435
Des
Traveller
 
Des's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: MUC
Posts: 2,438
Likes (Received): 806

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
My greatest concern is that most European governments, bowing to environwackos, have to treat highway construction, particularly heavy construction (new alignments, urban loops, serious widening) as almost a "necessary evil" that we have to "tolerate" instead of a positive stuff to have built and enrich the country.
Amen! New roads and highways bring wealth and prosperity to underdeveloped areas. Have a look at the Eastern European countries that are getting better and better infrastructure every year.
__________________
Car News
Des no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 4th, 2011, 10:23 PM   #5436
koloite
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Gildehaus
Posts: 62
Likes (Received): 1

New sign, but with error

Back on topic :-)

The Dutch road authority is renewing the signs along the Dutch motorways. So also on the A1 close to the German border. Here's a picture of one of those new signs, but it's got an error. Who can spot it?

koloite no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 4th, 2011, 10:26 PM   #5437
Des
Traveller
 
Des's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: MUC
Posts: 2,438
Likes (Received): 806

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
Although petrol is expensive here, cars are far more economical than in the US so it evens out to a rather smaller difference. Insurance is generally cheaper than in surrounding EU nations.
So you're saying an American driving a, per example, Mercedes C-Class, on average spends as much as a Dutch guy driving the exact same car?

I chose a car from the premium segment as other factors like availability, local competitors, market pricing etc influence the price of cheaper cars to much.

NL vs US:

Initial cost of the Mercedes C-Class (1,5 - 2x as expensive depending on type and exchange rate)
Road tax (500 euro more annually)
Insurance (similar?)
Petrol (4x as expensive...)
Average fuel economy (similar)

So you were saying because Americans drive more expensive and less fuel efficient cars than Dutch people its about the same?
__________________
Car News
Des no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 4th, 2011, 10:35 PM   #5438
Des
Traveller
 
Des's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: MUC
Posts: 2,438
Likes (Received): 806

Quote:
Originally Posted by koloite View Post
Back on topic :-)

The Dutch road authority is renewing the signs along the Dutch motorways. So also on the A1 close to the German border. Here's a picture of one of those new signs, but it's got an error. Who can spot it?

Whoever designed the sign swapped the Germany highway nr and the E nr. The A1 is the E30 not E22 (that runs through Groningen over the A7)...
__________________
Car News
Des no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 4th, 2011, 10:36 PM   #5439
-Pino-
Funkin' down the Track
 
-Pino-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 706
Likes (Received): 127

Quote:
Originally Posted by koloite View Post
So also on the A1 close to the German border. Here's a picture of one of those new signs, but it's got an error. Who can spot it?
Bad attempt at E-renumbering :-)

Besides, interesting to see a combination of A1 and German A30 on one shield. Previously, signs at the last exit before the German border only featured the German road number. The Dutch number would then be discontinued.
__________________
http://www.brombeer.net/signs
-Pino- no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 4th, 2011, 11:18 PM   #5440
Elmo
Registered User
 
Elmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Amsterdam - The Netherlands
Posts: 2,152
Likes (Received): 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Des View Post
So you're saying an American driving a, per example, Mercedes C-Class, on average spends as much as a Dutch guy driving the exact same car?

I chose a car from the premium segment as other factors like availability, local competitors, market pricing etc influence the price of cheaper cars to much.

NL vs US:

Initial cost of the Mercedes C-Class (1,5 - 2x as expensive depending on type and exchange rate)
Road tax (500 euro more annually)
Insurance (similar?)
Petrol (4x as expensive...)
Average fuel economy (similar)

So you were saying because Americans drive more expensive and less fuel efficient cars than Dutch people its about the same?
No, he said that the average car in Holland is more economical then the average car in the US.
Elmo no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
congestion, dutch, friesland, highways, motorways, netherlands

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium