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Old May 4th, 2011, 11:38 PM   #5441
Elmo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
You haven't been to Holland ? Even rural roads or 2x3 motorways in the middle of farmland are congested... 30 years of neglect to infrastructure. If there was only a problem on local city roads then it would be different, but the problem is country wide, A LOT of motorways, even in rural areas, used for longer distance travel, are constantly congested, they also have extremely high traffic levels for a 2x2 road which are theoretically not possible when holding a safe distance. The amount of cars has grown but infrastructure hasn't.

Tramlines are fine if they go on roads imho, but waste of space of they have space reserved exclusively for themselves, if you build a tramline you might as well use it as an extra car lane imho. But I don't like ''cosy'' small packed cities, a city should be built with enough space, enough parking, if you want a high density then skyscrapers with underground parking and wide roads at ground level.

Haha, Amsterdam is a complete disaster for cars, Rotterdam isn't perfect but likely the best larger city in Holland for cars.
Don't be such a wise guy.
He was talking about rural roads (the roads that have N numbers, or even lower ranked roads, not motorways!). They are far more cheaper per km then in heavily built up areas.

Try to imagine the effect if all people from Almere travelling to Amsterdam by train (40% of total traffic in rush hour) take the car. The numer of lanes on roads will have to be more then doubled!! And what about the extra needed parking spaces on expensive ground.
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Old May 5th, 2011, 11:08 AM   #5442
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Knooppunt Kooimeer

As of recently, the Netherlands has formally a new interchange. In the Netherlands, interchanges only get formal status if they have a name that is indicated on the signage. The Dutch word for motorway interchange is "knooppunt", which is different from a regular junction to other roads. However, not all motorway interchanges necessarily only connect motorways.

The new interchange is "knooppunt Kooimeer", and is located just south of Alkmaar. Here, the A9 motorway from Haarlem terminates, and continues physically as the N242 provincial expressway which runs along the east side of Alkmaar. The N9 branches off via a TOTSO, and continues along the west side of Alkmaar towards Den Helder.

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Old May 5th, 2011, 01:09 PM   #5443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Des View Post
So you're saying an American driving a, per example, Mercedes C-Class, on average spends as much as a Dutch guy driving the exact same car?

I chose a car from the premium segment as other factors like availability, local competitors, market pricing etc influence the price of cheaper cars to much.

NL vs US:

Initial cost of the Mercedes C-Class (1,5 - 2x as expensive depending on type and exchange rate)
Road tax (500 euro more annually)
Insurance (similar?)
Petrol (4x as expensive...)
Average fuel economy (similar)

So you were saying because Americans drive more expensive and less fuel efficient cars than Dutch people its about the same?
Learn how to read, yobbo.
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Old May 5th, 2011, 03:24 PM   #5444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmo View Post
Don't be such a wise guy.
He was talking about rural roads (the roads that have N numbers, or even lower ranked roads, not motorways!). They are far more cheaper per km then in heavily built up areas.
But why bring up rural roads when that network is totally underdeveloped here ? But the same applies to motorways, so whatever.

And where did I deny that ? All I said is, then the people who live in the urban area's, should cough up more for it.

Quote:

Try to imagine the effect if all people from Almere travelling to Amsterdam by train (40% of total traffic in rush hour) take the car. The numer of lanes on roads will have to be more then doubled!! And what about the extra needed parking spaces on expensive ground.
I imagine the effect would be less subsidy needed to go to trains, and the government getting far more income from fuel duty. And the number of lanes ARE being more than doubled in the next couple of years . Parking should be the responsibility of your employer, I know I wouldn't take a ****ty job where the employer hasn't got enough parking for his employees. I also doubt most people from Almere need to be in the canal area for work.

But, if that rail is truly so busy, then I doubt they are losing that much money, not compared to buses anyhow, but Almere gets the best of both worlds, the trains keep riding and the A6-A2 are being heavily upgraded .

Last edited by snowdog; May 5th, 2011 at 03:35 PM.
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Old May 5th, 2011, 05:59 PM   #5445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
Learn how to read, yobbo.
Where in the whole discussion is it relevant to put average fuel consuption of a nation's fleet against the individual cost of ownership? Although you are most probably right that the nation's fleet in the US is less fuel efficient than the Dutch fleet, its still in no way relevant to the discussion especially not when you're using it as an illustration that cost of car ownership (whether that is individual or average) in the US is about the same as in the Netherlands, as that is factual untrue.
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Old May 5th, 2011, 06:09 PM   #5446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Knooppunt Kooimeer

As of recently, the Netherlands has formally a new interchange. In the Netherlands, interchanges only get formal status if they have a name that is indicated on the signage. The Dutch word for motorway interchange is "knooppunt", which is different from a regular junction to other roads. However, not all motorway interchanges necessarily only connect motorways.
So this means Kooimeer was formerly a formal interchange, and is now back to being formal again?

PS: I think it is ridiculous that Rijkswaterstaat hasn't made knooppunt Bodegraven formal on the new signage. I think that would look much better.
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Old May 5th, 2011, 06:44 PM   #5447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Des View Post
Where in the whole discussion is it relevant to put average fuel consuption of a nation's fleet against the individual cost of ownership? Although you are most probably right that the nation's fleet in the US is less fuel efficient than the Dutch fleet, its still in no way relevant to the discussion especially not when you're using it as an illustration that cost of car ownership (whether that is individual or average) in the US is about the same as in the Netherlands, as that is factual untrue.
I never said that.
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Old May 5th, 2011, 11:34 PM   #5448
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I compiled some historic statistics about the Dutch motorway network:



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Old May 6th, 2011, 01:12 AM   #5449
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Wow, 1972 was a VERY busy year for Dutch motorways!

Last edited by PLH; May 7th, 2011 at 08:11 PM.
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Old May 6th, 2011, 04:01 AM   #5450
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I compiled some historic statistics about the Dutch motorway network
Apart from some 100-200 km in missing links there is not much length we can add in the upcoming decades, most development will involve upgrades of existing highways. And recent developments show we're quite good at that
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Last edited by PLH; May 7th, 2011 at 08:11 PM.
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Old May 7th, 2011, 09:42 AM   #5451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Knooppunt Kooimeer

As of recently, the Netherlands has formally a new interchange. In the Netherlands, interchanges only get formal status if they have a name that is indicated on the signage. The Dutch word for motorway interchange is "knooppunt", which is different from a regular junction to other roads. However, not all motorway interchanges necessarily only connect motorways.

The new interchange is "knooppunt Kooimeer", and is located just south of Alkmaar. Here, the A9 motorway from Haarlem terminates, and continues physically as the N242 provincial expressway which runs along the east side of Alkmaar. The N9 branches off via a TOTSO, and continues along the west side of Alkmaar towards Den Helder.

This is probably the only interchange in the Netherlands which includes a football stadium.
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Old May 7th, 2011, 10:22 AM   #5452
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The Ado Den Haag football stadium is also next to interchange Prins Clausplein.

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Old May 7th, 2011, 08:48 PM   #5453
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Pictures of the narrow Algerabrug (N210), east of Rotterdam.























































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Old May 7th, 2011, 08:58 PM   #5454
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That bridge is generally regarded as one of the worst chokepoints in the Rotterdam area. The projected I/C values for 2020 are worse than any motorway in the area. Over 40 000 people rely on this single crossing to get out of the area. The nearest alternative bridges are at Gouda, 25 kilometers in the wrong direction. To head south, the nearest bridges are even some 40 kilometers east. I consider this one of the worst planning in South Holland.
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Old May 8th, 2011, 04:29 AM   #5455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
That bridge is generally regarded as one of the worst chokepoints in the Rotterdam area. The projected I/C values for 2020 are worse than any motorway in the area. Over 40 000 people rely on this single crossing to get out of the area. The nearest alternative bridges are at Gouda, 25 kilometers in the wrong direction. To head south, the nearest bridges are even some 40 kilometers east. I consider this one of the worst planning in South Holland.
Agreed, I sometimes have a work shift in Krimpen ( live in Capelle, I work at 4 locations, one of which is Krimpen), and getting over the bridge is always a guess, some days it's reasonably normal and you can cross it normally, while busy you can hold a normal speed, other days you take 2 to 3x as long to get there because of a jam around the bridge, bloody annoying !

Always hated the fact that cars have to drive 50kph while buses can go 70 kph legally ( most drivers ignore the 50 limit anyhow and drive faster, but still, I think the people who thought up those bus lanes and disadvantaged cars compared to it have some loose screws...). Combined with some nimby whiners from the Valeriusrondeel and Reviusrondeel...

I know the area well, I'm a post driver/courier in that area, and the bridge has been a ***** for ages. Even in quiet hours, they sometimes open the bloody bridge causing a lot of lost time for loads of drivers.


If I was a dictator, the motorway from Knp. Ridderkerk would continue, cross the river into krimpen, and link up with the A20 or A12 near Gouda. They rejected an expansion of the metro to krimpen because they feared the problems it would bring with it ( junkies and other inconveniences...), but as a result, the Krimpen area is still a ***** to drive to.

Last edited by snowdog; May 8th, 2011 at 04:36 AM.
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Old May 8th, 2011, 09:55 PM   #5456
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Yeah, I agree. They should extend the A38-highway from IC Ridderkerk across the river with a tunnel or aquaduct.

Speaking about aquaducts... I took some pictures of the two aquaducts in highway A32 between Akkrum and Grou last week.

The Leppa Akwadukt:
image hosted on flickr

Leppa Akwadukt 8416 by ArthurK, on Flickr.

Akwadukt Mid-Fryslân:
image hosted on flickr

Akwadukt Mid-Fryslân 8382 by ArthurK, on Flickr.

Pretty insane, two aquaducts within five kilometers of each other. Guess they had too much money available for infrastructure...

EDIT: Now while I'm looking more closely to my pictures, I start to wonder since when the A32 is going to Sneek... I understand that the new system shows the next exit, but it's really stupid and confusing to put Sneek on this sign.

Last edited by ArthurK; May 8th, 2011 at 10:09 PM.
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Old May 9th, 2011, 12:02 AM   #5457
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The destination on the sign is indeed the name of the next exit in the new signage system.
Sneek is the only relevant destination to be reached via that exit (apart from some small villages), so they put it on the sign for both northbound and southbound traffic. It is however only the most logical route towards Sneek for drivers going southbound and is not used much by traffic going northbound. There was just nothing to put on the sign for the northbound traffic. You're not the only one who finds it strange. I've seen some discussions about it on a Dutch road forum.

Beautiful pictures by the way.
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Old May 9th, 2011, 02:29 PM   #5458
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Some good news about the traffic jam reduction in the Netherlands. Traffic congestion dropped by 17% in the first 4 months compared to 2010. This is attributed to additional road capacity. The 4th lane on A2 around Utrecht alone was good for 4 percentage points of that 17%. 2010 already saw a significant drop of congestion, which means current congestion levels are similar to 10 years ago, which is striking because between 2000 - 2009, traffic congestion doubled every 3 - 4 years.

Road widenings pay off bigtime.
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Old May 9th, 2011, 02:42 PM   #5459
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I agree with research Since 2007 I am driving in The Netherlands last few weeks are almost without traffic jams
For example: Groningen - Eindhoven on Monday's morning 2h35min before 2:50-3:40h!
So! Good job!
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Old May 9th, 2011, 04:44 PM   #5460
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More asphalt reduces congestion? Impossible!

/Groenlinks, PvdA, D66, Greenpies, miljeudefensie, PvdD, FNV, UN mode...

Now do it correctly, fix the Rotterdam& Den haag & Utrecht area's.

Build the A38 from Ridderkerk.
A20 Between Gouda and R'dam 2x3 minimum, upgrade afrit Nieuwerkerk ( congested since Nesselande was built), upgrade afrit Moordrecht ( has been a catastrophe for over a decade).
A12 From Den Haag to Gouda 2x3 minimum, make those bloody plus lanes normal lanes.
A12 Gouda-Utrecht 2x5 minimum.
Build the missing A4 link(s), both north and south of R'dam.
Build the A16-A13 link & upgrade A13 accordingly.
Upgrade A15 from R'dam at least up to knp. Gorinchem
A4 between the Hague and the interchange with A44 at least 2x3, preferably 2x4.
A44 needs upgraded afritten ( on and offroads).
Whole Ring Utrecht needs a lot of work, th A28 to Amersfoort needs work, A12 and A27 need an upgrade on and around the ring ( A27 esp., A12 only east of Utrecht and the Ring itself).


imho, The government needs a kick in the arse and the nimby and environment whiners need a slap in the face. I'd even be willing to pay a bit more tax temporarily to get all the above asap.

Last edited by snowdog; May 9th, 2011 at 05:40 PM.
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