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Old June 21st, 2011, 12:35 PM   #5641
Slagathor
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That seems silly.
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Old June 21st, 2011, 01:18 PM   #5642
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I don't know if it is silly. It sounds agreeable to me, in theory. In practice it is probably very different.
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Old June 21st, 2011, 02:02 PM   #5643
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I've heard of a similar law with the one that spinoza told us... I think it was in Spain but I'm not 100% sure I'm right: teenagers (less than 21 years old) and people who have their licence for less than a year can't drive a car that has more than 120 hp. Sounds good to me because there are too many teenagers (at least in my country) that receive big-powerfull cars exactly after they get their licence.
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Old June 21st, 2011, 02:06 PM   #5644
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
I've heard of a similar law with the one that spinoza told us... I think it was in Spain but I'm not 100% sure I'm right: teenagers (less than 21 years old) and people who have their licence for less than a year can't drive a car that has more than 120 hp. Sounds good to me because there are too many teenagers (at least in my country) that receive big-powerfull cars exactly after they get their licence.
In Italy the first proposal of the law was similar, just power-based. But then they figured that very lightweight vehicles with powerful engines still can reach
considerable speeds, so they introduced the actual criteria which are power AND power-to-weight ratio (I was wrong before, I told only the ratio).
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Old June 21st, 2011, 02:31 PM   #5645
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I think the Italian law is silly and that the Dutch law to lower supervised driving age to 17 in sensible.

These incidents of someone driving at 200km/h on highways are the tiny minority. If you go after Youtube video, you'll find older folks doing that also. Majority of serious car accidents caused by teenagers are not high-speed crashes on highways, but things like overrunning a traffic light (=crash), lack of attention on pedestrian crossings (=hit) and solo crashes related to DUI. A 60hp car is as capable as doing damage to the driver, other cars and pedestrians as a 120hp car in such scenarios.

Indeed, scooters and small motorbikes are far more deadly to teenagers than cars.

Measures like progressive license (starting at 15 or 16 with many restrictions and going to full license 1,5-2 years later) seems to be the best course of action. First you allow teenagers to drive only supervised for a few months. Then, you allow solo driving only during daylight, followed by drive anytime but without other non-relative minors in the car (a major reason for "peer pressure" on reckless behavior, not only in cars). Next, you allow them to carry one person. You keep zero tolerance for DUI and DWI for up to 3 years. That way, teenagers can learn in a responsible way to drive, as infractions would set them back to square one or delay the next step on the progressive license.

I make a parallel to the alcohol laws: countries like US with a sudden cut-off (nothing before age 21, anything above 21) entice many binge drinking, while countries taking a gradual approach (soft beers and iced vodka at 14, wine and normal beers at 16, spirits at 18 and specially dangerous drinks at 20) usually see less, not more, problems with excessive drinking.

I personally think that teenagers age 14 should be able to start learning how to drive if they pass psychological tests and his/her parents authorize it (under the guise of being financially liable anyway). Immediately after they complete 15 supervised driving should be allowed, with gradual steps in the process. By age 17, responsible drivers should be able to have a full unrestricted license, like in most of US. Operating a car is no big deal, particularly in this day and age of ABS, EDS, hydraulic assisted steering etc. If more affluent Dutch families could afford to give their children cars instead of powerful scooters, the overall number of traffic fatalities would certainly decrease. After all, scooter X bicycle and scooter X pedestrian are among the biggest causes of traffic accidents.
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Old June 21st, 2011, 02:40 PM   #5646
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Kids under 16 are in no way able to oversee al consequences of their actions. I think allowing them to drive, even under supervision, is asking for troubles.
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Old June 21st, 2011, 02:45 PM   #5647
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I agree in 100%
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Old June 21st, 2011, 03:05 PM   #5648
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I would RAISE sensibly the age for driving. When you're eighteen you know nothing.
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Old June 21st, 2011, 04:07 PM   #5649
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And if you start driving at an older age you still don't now anything. It is all about experience in traffic. Your point of view from a car drivers perspective is different from that of a pedestrian, cyclist or biker.
you cannot become a good driver without having the experience so what would be the major advantage of raising the age above 18? I think it is beneficial to start learning driving as early as possible, because it gives you also the point of view of the driver when you are participating in traffic as a non-driver, so you can better adapt to them.
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Old June 21st, 2011, 04:14 PM   #5650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vliegtuigbouwert View Post
you cannot become a good driver without having the experience so what would be the major advantage of raising the age above 18?
That you can approach to traffic with a bit more of maturity, that is NOT ONLY experience in traffic, but also experience in interpersonal relationship. At 18 you're god and everyone is stupid, at 25 things change.
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Old June 21st, 2011, 06:24 PM   #5651
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The missing link between The Netherlands and Germany, it´s been a drag for a long time.

My solution for now:



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Old June 21st, 2011, 06:25 PM   #5652
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Just to the south is B67, a high-standard 2+1 road.
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Old June 21st, 2011, 06:34 PM   #5653
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Just to the south is B67, a high-standard 2+1 road.
International traderoutes are, and has to be minimum 2+2 highways, and it´s not there.

R´Damm already dropped down to the worlds no 3 shipping port. If the trade routes are not in place, they might loose even more ground.

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Old June 21st, 2011, 07:17 PM   #5654
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
That you can approach to traffic with a bit more of maturity, that is NOT ONLY experience in traffic, but also experience in interpersonal relationship. At 18 you're god and everyone is stupid, at 25 things change.
I think you exaggerate a bit. I was in that period when I was probably around 15, certainly not at 18 anymore. Though it must be said that I'm only 21 years old and got my license at 18. The only reason I made mistakes was because of my lack of experience, not because I deliberately broke the traffic laws. I even preferred having an experienced driver (parent) on the passenger's seat for the first year or so. Morons in traffic have always been there and will always be.
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Old June 21st, 2011, 08:51 PM   #5655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
In Italy there is a law stating that people under 21 years of age (or for three years after getting the license, I can't remember) can drive only cars below a specific ratio power/weight. I don't know how much this is enforced, though: it is also a very unpopular law, because it forces families to buy another car for the kid, if the family car is too powerful.
Various USA states are trending towards 'graduated' licensing for newbie drivers, especially teens, with privileges being expanded as they gain experience over time. So far, it appears to be working well. Most states have always started licensing with probationary licenses at 16 YO, with some at 15.5.

Mike
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Old June 21st, 2011, 08:54 PM   #5656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vliegtuigbouwert View Post
I think you exaggerate a bit.
Of course I exaggerate. But I do think that your sensibility towards others, and your perception of danger, changes a lot during those years.
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Old June 21st, 2011, 11:03 PM   #5657
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vliegtuigbouwert View Post
I think you exaggerate a bit. I was in that period when I was probably around 15, certainly not at 18 anymore. Though it must be said that I'm only 21 years old and got my license at 18. The only reason I made mistakes was because of my lack of experience, not because I deliberately broke the traffic laws. I even preferred having an experienced driver (parent) on the passenger's seat for the first year or so. Morons in traffic have always been there and will always be.
The point is the number of morons is considerably higher among younger drivers. Some of this is due to driving experience, but much of it is not. It's been scientifically proven adolescents are incapable of judging risk sensibly (the way a more mature person would). This applies to every part of life. We should perhaps take it into consideration with regards to the legal driving age.
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Old June 22nd, 2011, 12:07 AM   #5658
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fender56 View Post
International traderoutes are, and has to be minimum 2+2 highways, and it´s not there.

R´Damm already dropped down to the worlds no 3 shipping port. If the trade routes are not in place, they might loose even more ground.
Humbug.

1. The route is there: BAB30 - A1 - A28 - A12 - A20 or BAB30 - A1 - A50 - A15
2. Rotterdam is still Europe's first trading port. It's the far east (Shanghai, Singapore) which have succesfully competed for first place. That has nothing to do with an extra connection between the Dutch and German road network.
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Old June 22nd, 2011, 12:13 AM   #5659
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About the dumb **** driving that Nissan, it's funny that the police actually looked into it, while knowing that there's nothing you can really do unless they've seen it happening. Did anyone notice his dumb smile at the start of the video? You can see the tension, he's like shivering. So excited about doing this, in other words, he has no idea what he's doing. Very immature.
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Old June 22nd, 2011, 09:06 AM   #5660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
308 km/h on public roads in NL:

[youtube]W9WWdevNbxA[youtube]
The computer of a GTR can be reprogrammed, if you count the lines he passes in how many time you'll notice he isn't driving faster than about 205 kph, which is hardly so fast for an autoweg, I find the 100+ kph at the start of the vid in the residential area FAR more dangerous, 200+ on an expressway is hardly dangerous.

Dumb of him to record himself.
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