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Old August 7th, 2011, 02:11 PM   #5861
ChrisZwolle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glodenox View Post
Since the road number is signed, it only makes sense to also add them to the detour sign. Instead of "[place name] via [place name]", it'd be "[place name], [E-number] via [place name]". I doubt that'd be asking too much? If you don't sign them, I wouldn't start using them in the first place. When a road is signed, you expect it to be signed in case of detours as well. Even if it is just a "go via there" message.
Uhm, this is no different in Belgium with A-numbers...
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Old August 7th, 2011, 02:23 PM   #5862
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glodenox View Post



@Road_UK: then why the hell are there E19 signs? If it's all fake and has no value whatsoever, then just remove the whole bunch because it's of no use to have signs for something that isn't supported.
Nobody knows why they are there. That's the thing. In countries like Sweden or Norway it doesn't matter when they use E-routes only, as major routes are limited. But in a country like Belgium it's a stupid thing to do. Why is the E19 in Belgium posted as A1 when everyone sticks with E19 anyway?

But if you intend to travel from Amsterdam to Sweden using E22 signage only, then make sure you bring some dry clothes with you.
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Old August 7th, 2011, 02:36 PM   #5863
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
You followed an E-number? That's a very Belgian thing to do... And not a great idea in the rest of Europe.

EDIT: Chris beat me to it
Following an E-route can only be useful when 1: If you know that they are signposted along the entire route. In Germany for example they only post them when they feel like it. Belgian bloke that got lost following the E19 would definitely get a fit on the M25 around London. And 2: If you have made sure that the E-route in question actually takes the shortest route. E60 from the Black Sea to Brest is in fact the shortest and fasted route to take all the way.

But the Belgians have totally misinterpreted the use of E-routes in Europe.
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Old August 7th, 2011, 02:43 PM   #5864
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E-numbers don't make sense. Nobody would drive from Maastricht to Rotterdam following the E25. Similarly, E19 doesn't make sense from Antwerpen to Amsterdam. In addition, E19 + E22 from Den Haag to Groningen is also a route nobody would use.
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Old August 7th, 2011, 02:52 PM   #5865
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
In addition, E19 + E22 from Den Haag to Groningen is also a route nobody would use.
Did it once on my way to Sweden from Calais: E19 from Antwerp to Amsterdam all the way and E22 from Amsterdam to Luebeck (where a little further it dissapears into the sea, until it shows up in Sweden again. I obviously took a ferry from Puttgarden to Roedbyhavn). I wasn't interested in the E-route though. I was traveling overnight, forgot my bank card, was unable to change currency in Dover and on the ferry, so I had to stop off at Schiphol on the way to change money.
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Old August 7th, 2011, 03:57 PM   #5866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glodenox View Post
@Slagathor: yep, I'm Belgian. So what? If it is a signed route, I should be able to use it.
The problem is that your country is the only one that's taken this E-route thing seriously. The rest of us saw the maps and thought: "That doesn't make a lot of sense." so it was only partially adopted. The Netherlands is still one of the most consistent users of E-signage in that every E-route in the Netherlands is displayed as such as well. In countries such as Germany, Italy and UK, you'll find the occasional reference to E-routes but not in any consistent fashion.

Belgium is also the only country that I know of where they use the E-numbers in the traffic reports. Nobody else does that.

It's a very understandable mistake that, as a Belgian citizen, you chose to rely on an E-number in the Netherlands. But it's a mistake, because they're no good.
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Old August 7th, 2011, 04:05 PM   #5867
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E-routes aren't signed on on-ramps either. Don't expect to drive around the Netherlands on N-roads and finding directions to E-routes.

E-routes are in a way similar to local destinations signed on motorways. They're used by only a fraction of the motorists, and that's why not every single local destination or E-route will be signed on detour signage.

Detour signage adds to the already overload of roadside information, so you want to keep these as clear and minimal as possible.
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Old August 7th, 2011, 04:37 PM   #5868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
The problem is that your country is the only one that's taken this E-route thing seriously.

Belgium is also the only country that I know of where they use the E-numbers in the traffic reports. Nobody else does that.
Wrong. Denmark, Norway and Sweden do the same.

I don't expect any on-ramp signalling, I know which motorway I have to enter again to get back on the E19. I don't expect it there and don't have any problems with it being absent there. But once I'm following the route, I should be able to continue following it.

The opinion that E-routes don't make sense doesn't matter in this either. Either it gets adjusted (which I'd have no problem with) to make it more sensible, or it gets abolished completely. But since it was a perfect match for the path I wanted to take, it made a lot of sense to me, even knowing that the Dutch themselves don't use it. Also, from where do you think you have the right to say we're looking at it the wrong way? You can't decide who's right or wrong. It's a different point of view on the E-routes and nobody is wrong on that.

In Belgium, detours are signed not only by location, but also with the road number (usually only with the E-number, since we hardly ever use the A-number of an E-route). So there is a BIG difference in how we sign detours.

What do you think makes the most sense for someone with NO knowledge whatsoever about how the road network and cities in the Netherlands are geographically positioned (note: I'm travelling from near Brussels towards Leiden):

1. Learn by heart the following sequence of roads: A1 (Belgium), A16, A20, A13, A4 as well as the following locations since they may be used in detour signs: Breda, Dordrecht, Rotterdam, Den Haag, Utrecht, Amsterdam.

2. Follow the E19 signs.

@Road_UK: both those conditions were met for me: I knew it was signposted the whole way since I did the same route last year and it was a perfect match with the shortest route both according to my GPS and Google Maps. It is for that reason that I chose to just follow the E19 signs. I know the situation in the Netherlands and for most other locations, I'd use option 1, but I knew that in this case, it wouldn't be needed.

Sure, an overload of information is dangerous, but not giving a road number? If there was a Dutch A-number in the detour sign, it would've helped me tons already, because I personally do know some of the ones that I'd be following en-route, but even that wasn't there. That's the whole basis for international traffic that's getting ignored as it if didn't exist.

Greetings,
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Old August 7th, 2011, 05:08 PM   #5869
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glodenox View Post
In Belgium, detours are signed not only by location, but also with the road number (usually only with the E-number, since we hardly ever use the A-number of an E-route). So there is a BIG difference in how we sign detours.
This is exactly the same as in the Netherlands, only the other way around.
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Old August 7th, 2011, 05:25 PM   #5870
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glodenox View Post
Wrong. Denmark, Norway and Sweden do the same.

I don't expect any on-ramp signalling, I know which motorway I have to enter again to get back on the E19. I don't expect it there and don't have any problems with it being absent there. But once I'm following the route, I should be able to continue following it.

The opinion that E-routes don't make sense doesn't matter in this either. Either it gets adjusted (which I'd have no problem with) to make it more sensible, or it gets abolished completely. But since it was a perfect match for the path I wanted to take, it made a lot of sense to me, even knowing that the Dutch themselves don't use it. Also, from where do you think you have the right to say we're looking at it the wrong way? You can't decide who's right or wrong. It's a different point of view on the E-routes and nobody is wrong on that.

In Belgium, detours are signed not only by location, but also with the road number (usually only with the E-number, since we hardly ever use the A-number of an E-route). So there is a BIG difference in how we sign detours.

What do you think makes the most sense for someone with NO knowledge whatsoever about how the road network and cities in the Netherlands are geographically positioned (note: I'm travelling from near Brussels towards Leiden):

1. Learn by heart the following sequence of roads: A1 (Belgium), A16, A20, A13, A4 as well as the following locations since they may be used in detour signs: Breda, Dordrecht, Rotterdam, Den Haag, Utrecht, Amsterdam.

2. Follow the E19 signs.

@Road_UK: both those conditions were met for me: I knew it was signposted the whole way since I did the same route last year and it was a perfect match with the shortest route both according to my GPS and Google Maps. It is for that reason that I chose to just follow the E19 signs. I know the situation in the Netherlands and for most other locations, I'd use option 1, but I knew that in this case, it wouldn't be needed.

Sure, an overload of information is dangerous, but not giving a road number? If there was a Dutch A-number in the detour sign, it would've helped me tons already, because I personally do know some of the ones that I'd be following en-route, but even that wasn't there. That's the whole basis for international traffic that's getting ignored as it if didn't exist.

Greetings,
Glodenox
I wasn't trying to say the Belgian approach of E-numbers is wrong. But you have to admit it's a minority view.

Last time I drove from The Hague to Derby (UK), I memorized the A and M numbers as well as the key cities. Not because that's such a great thing to do, but because E-numbers just don't work in most countries.

It would be nice if we had a European version of the US Interstate system and I appreciate Belgium's efforts to give the E system such legitimacy, but the truth is the E system is no good. It's illogical and not commonly used.
Therefore, I think it's a bit naive to base any European road trips on E numbers.
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Old August 7th, 2011, 05:34 PM   #5871
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I think some E routes are useful - eg ones where they take a direct route, but that route follows a lot of national road numbers. The E62 in France (though it gets a bit bizarre not long after that), or E30 in the Netherlands for instance (though, based off the map, I'd go via Rotterdam rather than via Den Haag going from Hoek to Germany).

The Netherlands has some of the worst E numbering in Europe - partially due to the geography (lots of call for diagonal coastal and coast - Rhine-Ruhr routes), partially due to location - the dense network of E roads in that Rhine corridor, partially due to politics (E22 over the dam, rather than a more direct way) and partially due to the over-rigid application of the grid (E25 and E35 cannoning at Utrecht).
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Old August 7th, 2011, 05:45 PM   #5872
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I don't think it's the Dutch that have chosen the E numbering system to be placed at the current locations. Not sure who did though, but they have to be connected to the E routes abroad. And who has decided that the E22 from Germany to Sweden has to run under water?
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Old August 7th, 2011, 05:49 PM   #5873
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
I wasn't trying to say the Belgian approach of E-numbers is wrong. But you have to admit it's a minority view.

Last time I drove from The Hague to Derby (UK), I memorized the A and M numbers as well as the key cities. Not because that's such a great thing to do, but because E-numbers just don't work in most countries.

It would be nice if we had a European version of the US Interstate system and I appreciate Belgium's efforts to give the E system such legitimacy, but the truth is the E system is no good. It's illogical and not commonly used.
Therefore, I think it's a bit naive to base any European road trips on E numbers.
Remembering key cities in the UK can be a bit of a challenge. M11, A1(M) and M1 all run to the North. There is your key city. M11 merges with the A1(M) via A14, and only merges with the M1 north of Leeds, not counting the M62 link road.

Key cities from Antwerp to Leiden signposted: Breda, Rotterdam and Amsterdam. That's not so hard to remember.
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Old August 7th, 2011, 07:21 PM   #5874
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Remembering key cities in the UK can be a bit of a challenge. M11, A1(M) and M1 all run to the North. There is your key city. M11 merges with the A1(M) via A14, and only merges with the M1 north of Leeds, not counting the M62 link road.

Key cities from Antwerp to Leiden signposted: Breda, Rotterdam and Amsterdam. That's not so hard to remember.
I actually found the UK part of my trip the easiest. Just follow the M1 up North. Everyone can do that.

London is signalled from Dover so that works. Then follow Dartford crossing for a while, then M1. Easy peasy.

The hardest part was paying the toll at Dartford with the toll booth on the 'wrong' side of the car
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Old August 8th, 2011, 02:33 AM   #5875
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Tomorrow I'll probably reach the Netherlands (I'm at Brenner now), I'm pretty curious to drive around there after all I've read in this topic... I think I'll also pay a visit to Zwolle, hope there's something nice to see there
Unluckily I'll have no connection from tomorrow, hope to find a wifi hotspot in some Dutch campsite.
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Old August 8th, 2011, 09:02 AM   #5876
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All McDonald's in the Netherlands (and most of Europe) have free wifi.
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Old August 8th, 2011, 11:15 AM   #5877
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Sorry guys but such a small countries like The Netherlands or Belgium have bad E-numbering. In NL even worse like someone mentioned before. For short travel within one small country lack of E-numbers is not a issue.
Facing problem is for drivers/people driving through many countries. I follow quite often E30, E40, E50 driving thousand kilometers and it's easier to remember 1 number then (i.e. in PL, CZ, D, F, B,...).
I found E22 going from Oldenburg via Groningen to Amsterdam very reasonable. No horrible Dutch just traffic near Almere-Weesp. You can avoid this follow E22.
E-numbers are also way to manage international traffic and congestion on roads due to international planning.

BTW, when I drive on E50 I know I am moving east <-> west direction and on i.e. E75 north <-> south
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Old August 8th, 2011, 12:02 PM   #5878
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I think from Groningen they have now calculated distance to Amsterdam via Lelystad/Almere. When you get to the roundabout at Joure they used to signpost Amsterdam going both ways: via Emmeloord and Lelystad/Almere A6 (no E-number available) or A7/E22 via Afsluitdijk. Now they signpost option one only, and E22 is signposted as Sneek only. After Sneek you can pick up signs for Amsterdam again, if you're persistent in using A7/E22 all the way. It also really depends where in Amsterdam you're going.
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Old August 8th, 2011, 12:34 PM   #5879
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Another video, this time the A9 motorway from interchange Badhoevedorp to Uitgeest, bypass the Amsterdam region. A map is provided at the beginning of the video.

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Old August 8th, 2011, 02:40 PM   #5880
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Fryslan, Donkerbroek - Leeuwarden:

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