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Old September 20th, 2011, 07:10 PM   #6061
ChrisZwolle
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Interchange Joure: A6-A7 - most substandard motorway-to-motorway interchange in the country.
It was announced today that the ministry of infrastructure and environment provided an additional € 4 million to make the rebuilding of this interchange suitable for 130 km/h speeds. This does mean the procedures are delayed by several months, most likely at least half a year. The new motorway interchange will be constructed between 2013 and 2015. They will also prepare this new interchange for a new aquaduct just south of the interchange which crosses the "Scharsterrijn", a local canal between Lake Tjeuke and Lake Sneek, which is used a lot by recreational shipping.

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Old September 20th, 2011, 07:21 PM   #6062
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The additional €4M sounds like a total waste of money to me, I think there are bigger problems than a 10km/h design speed increase (aren't they usually designed for that anyway?) on an interchange.

The Gmaps image of the roundabout shows why the upgrade is necessary. Delays are frequent (daily). The traffic jams are not long in distance, but the waiting time often is. Especially when you come from the A7 West/Sneek and want to go to A7 East/Heerenveen. Traffic coming onto the roundabout has to yield to traffic on the roundabout, so A7W>A7E traffic has to yield to A7E>A6S traffic (the busiest traffic flow).
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Old September 20th, 2011, 08:09 PM   #6063
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The additional €4M sounds like a total waste of money to me, I think there are bigger problems than a 10km/h design speed increase (aren't they usually designed for that anyway?) on an interchange.
I wonder about that too. A revised acoustical survey for a rural location like this will not cost € 4 million, it can be done for a 4 or maybe 5-digit cost, not 7-digit. Revising the acoustical impact assessment for such a project is basically changing the speed in the model from 120 to 130 km/h. It can be done in one work day. If they're paying € 4 million for that, I'd change jobs immediately.

So I think it has something to do with the design standards. Although the difference between 120 and 130 km/h may seem small, it apparently requires some changes in the design of this interchange. It would be nice to have a 130 km/h corridor all the way from Almere to Groningen.
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Old September 21st, 2011, 11:47 AM   #6064
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Is that the roundabout with McDonald's on the corner? I've been there a couple of times but I'm not sure because it looks different on the picture.
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Old September 21st, 2011, 02:44 PM   #6065
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Yesterday was Prinsjesdag, or Prince's Day, the third Tuesday in September where the budget for the following year is unveiled. As usual, the budget leaked beforehand, though this is not really a big deal.

2012:

Government income: € 244 billion
Government expenses: € 257 billion

Some motorist-related taxes:

* Road tax (MRB): € 3.6 billion
* Car tax (BPM): € 2.1 billion
* Environmental tax: € 4.4 billion (not all related to motoring)
* Excise duty: € 11.5 billion (not all related to motoring)

Governmenet expenses:

Infrastructure and environment: € 10.7 billion
Out of which Rijkswaterstaat: € 2.5 billion

The rijkswaterstaat budget for the maintenance, expansion and operating of the road network is € 2.5 billion, or about 1 percent of the government expenses or 0.4% of the GDP.
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Old September 21st, 2011, 02:47 PM   #6066
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Is that the roundabout with McDonald's on the corner? I've been there a couple of times but I'm not sure because it looks different on the picture.
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Old September 23rd, 2011, 09:58 AM   #6067
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Yesterday was Prinsjesdag, or Prince's Day, the third Tuesday in September where the budget for the following year is unveiled. As usual, the budget leaked beforehand, though this is not really a big deal.

2012:

Government income: € 244 billion
Government expenses: € 257 billion

Some motorist-related taxes:

* Road tax (MRB): € 3.6 billion
* Car tax (BPM): € 2.1 billion
* Environmental tax: € 4.4 billion (not all related to motoring)
* Excise duty: € 11.5 billion (not all related to motoring)

Governmenet expenses:

Infrastructure and environment: € 10.7 billion
Out of which Rijkswaterstaat: € 2.5 billion

The rijkswaterstaat budget for the maintenance, expansion and operating of the road network is € 2.5 billion, or about 1 percent of the government expenses or 0.4% of the GDP.
It would be interesting to show also the gov incomes and expenses for public transport and related services.
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Old September 24th, 2011, 04:46 PM   #6068
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A2/E25 Maastricht

Looking to Maastricht from the A2-E25 (Eindhoven-Maastricht)

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Old September 25th, 2011, 09:40 PM   #6069
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A2 near Nieuwegein, northbound widening almost completed


photo by: afrit9
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Old September 25th, 2011, 10:46 PM   #6070
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
It would be interesting to show also the gov incomes and expenses for public transport and related services.
Here's the pre 1990 switchover from funding roads towards propping up failing PT: http://i51.************/rrtq9i.gif

Source: own research from yearly government budgets
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Old September 25th, 2011, 11:01 PM   #6071
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It's even more shocking if you consider that the "national road" network carries over 4 times as much passenger-kilometers as the entire Dutch public transport. (the entire road network carries approximately 8 times more, national roads - mostly motorways and a few other links - carry 50% of the total road traffic in the Netherlands).

Which means government spending on public transport per passenger-kilometer is not twice as much, but 8 times as much as the national road spending. And still rail fans have the audacity to claim that the government is spending too much on roads and not enough on public transport.
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Old September 25th, 2011, 11:58 PM   #6072
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It's even more shocking if you consider that the "national road" network carries over 4 times as much passenger-kilometers as the entire Dutch public transport. (the entire road network carries approximately 8 times more, national roads - mostly motorways and a few other links - carry 50% of the total road traffic in the Netherlands).

Which means government spending on public transport per passenger-kilometer is not twice as much, but 8 times as much as the national road spending. And still rail fans have the audacity to claim that the government is spending too much on roads and not enough on public transport.
What I wanted to point out with my question about the public transport was that the gov. has to finance from these taxes not only the roads infrastructure, but also the public transport. When there is together 7 Bln Euro spent on the transport it gives much different perspective on these tax incomes spending. The money really go back into transport.

And in general, the public transport question should also allways be a question, how much would the economy (and also the government) lose if the public transport would not be available.
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Old September 26th, 2011, 11:28 AM   #6073
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It's even more shocking if you consider that the "national road" network carries over 4 times as much passenger-kilometers as the entire Dutch public transport. (the entire road network carries approximately 8 times more, national roads - mostly motorways and a few other links - carry 50% of the total road traffic in the Netherlands).

Which means government spending on public transport per passenger-kilometer is not twice as much, but 8 times as much as the national road spending. And still rail fans have the audacity to claim that the government is spending too much on roads and not enough on public transport.
How is that calculated? Because maintenance on and construction of railway lines is not "public transport" - most of the lines are intensively used by freighter trains.
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Old September 26th, 2011, 11:39 AM   #6074
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Rail freight is a joke in the Netherlands. The total tonnage is less than 5% compared to road transport, and domestic rail transport is less than 1% compared to domestic road transport.

It's impossible to cater both modalities at the same time. Europe focuses on passenger rail transport, leaving little capacity for freight. The United States focuses on freight rail transport, leaving little capacity for passengers. The only way to cater both is to construct separate networks, much like the high-speed rail vs conventional rail. There is no money to operate, build and maintain three separate rail networks (freight, conventional, high-speed).
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Old September 26th, 2011, 12:40 PM   #6075
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Comparing freight transport on rail to the same on the road is irrelevant. The point is that construction and maintenance (especially maintenance!) on railways cannot be classified as a 'public transport expenditure.'
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Old September 26th, 2011, 01:05 PM   #6076
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Comparing freight transport on rail to the same on the road is irrelevant. The point is that construction and maintenance (especially maintenance!) on railways cannot be classified as a 'public transport expenditure.'
Why not?

btw, freight on railways is in the Netherlands from historical and socioeconomic reasons minimal. Transport on water was/is cheaper and serves(d), funny enough, bigger area. The only important freight line is from Rotterdam to Germany and further on the EU markets.

And then again I want to note something. These figures, do they include the total costs for road maintanance? Not only Motorways, expressways, national roads, but also all the roads inside the urban areas, all the parking places, all the bycicle paths, investments and maintanace of these? I dont think so. And that is also very important if we want to talking about the government revenue generated by the transport sector, we have to really present all the costs assosiated with transportation to become able to evaluated whether the money are pumped out through the budget or not.
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Old September 26th, 2011, 01:17 PM   #6077
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Comparing freight transport on rail to the same on the road is irrelevant. The point is that construction and maintenance (especially maintenance!) on railways cannot be classified as a 'public transport expenditure.'
Why not? Public transport also uses it. Besides that, rail freight also pays for using the railways. And it still needs € 4 billion of government investment per year. You can talk about marginal stuff like this, but the bottom line is the expenditures on public transport far exceed the road expenditures, not only in absolute figures, but especially on a per-traveler kilometer basis. To simply put it, a public transport traveler burdens the tax payer 8 times more than a road traveler.

Now you can talk about if roads are under-invested or public transport is over-invested. Or maybe these discussions are not politically correct, we're not supposed to compare this.
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Old September 26th, 2011, 04:01 PM   #6078
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What you say is true, but with that you also suggest that having no PT would be cheaper. I doubt that.

PT handles a lot of travelers, especially in congested areas in peak hours. NS transports about 1,1 million passengers per day. Add to that all regional PT companies, and you will get a high figure. If all these people, mainly commuters in the Randstad at peak hours, would get into their car and drive, our automobile infrastructure would go into instant gridlock, making enormous investments and maintenance budgets necessary.

Also, PT mainly supports our most economically productive areas: the big cities. These cities cannot exist in their current form without PT. I would argue that if you would take out PT from Amsterdam for instance, many (international) companies would leave, as it would directly affect the quality of life.

So PT is expensive, but IMO it is an essential part of our transportation network, making our most productive urban economies possible.
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Old September 26th, 2011, 04:15 PM   #6079
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Not saying you're entirely wrong, but when there is no PT, it doesn't mean that all people who took PT, will use cars. A lot of people who take PT don't own a car so they can't use one.
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Old September 26th, 2011, 05:08 PM   #6080
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If all these people, mainly commuters in the Randstad at peak hours, would get into their car and drive, our automobile infrastructure would go into instant gridlock, making enormous investments and maintenance budgets necessary.
That statement is often heard, but that is a far too simplistic approach of how transportation works. The far majority of the public transport travelers do not have a car at hand for everyday travel. Some can fix a car for short durations, but longer strikes have learned us shutting down public transport for a few days has absolutely no effect on traffic volumes. Only 3% of the public transport travelers have both a car and a drivers license. Furthermore, the amount of travelers by public transport and the amount of car drivers is not 50/50. Even if 50% of all public transport travelers would drive cars, the traffic volumes rise by only a few percent.
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