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Old February 24th, 2012, 02:00 AM   #6681
keokiracer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The speed limits are mostly due to environmental (bogus) concern than safety when the highways are empty.
Just as it says in my video, the police (our good 'friend' Koos Spee) has actually admitted that the controls on the wide A2 are just to cash in
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Old February 24th, 2012, 05:08 AM   #6682
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Quote:
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The speed limits are mostly due to environmental (bogus) concern than safety when the highways are empty. But they are increasing the limit to 130 in many sectors anyway.

I don't think vandalism of speed cameras is the right way to protest it.
What do you suggest then ? Personally I won't ever do any silly things like that, but I can't deny having an enormous grin on my face when I see a burned or otherwise disabled or destroyed speed camera . Let's just say that if I'd see someone do something to it I wouldn't have seen anything .

Last edited by snowdog; February 24th, 2012 at 06:41 PM.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 12:21 PM   #6683
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Me neither. I'm a bit uptight about speeding in that I think people doing more than 50 in a built-up area should be shot in the face with a bazooka (especially near schools) but even I deeply dislike speed cameras.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 06:15 PM   #6684
ChrisZwolle
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A1 Amsterdam - Eemnes

I made a video last weekend of the A1. It's recorded on a Saturday around 5 pm. Some shoulder running can be observed in this video.

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Old February 24th, 2012, 06:38 PM   #6685
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Neat video, Chris.
The motorway seems very tormented and complicated, with all these sudden changes between 2-3-4 lanes. Is this the norm for the Netherlands?
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Old February 24th, 2012, 06:45 PM   #6686
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Neat video, Chris.
The motorway seems very tormented and complicated, with all these sudden changes between 2-3-4 lanes. Is this the norm for the Netherlands?
Aye, around Rotterdam, Amsterdam, Utrecht and The Hague it is more or less like this. In the ''rural'' areas it's a bit simpler/easier.

However, I am of the opinion drivers who find it all to ''complicated'' do not belong on the road here .
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Old February 24th, 2012, 06:47 PM   #6687
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Unfortunately most previous road upgrades were very segmented, they didn't use the corridor-approach as much as they do today, so you indeed get a lot of lane changes. This section in particular is somewhat messy due to the reversible lanes in the median (which were closed in the direction I drove to).

Especially the short section with the two bridges carries a lot of traffic, out of the 200,000 vehicles on that section, only about 110,000 continue east of there, Almere is a major suburb with 180,000 inhabitants along A6.

As I noted in the video, this section will be upgraded. The interchanges will be realigned and the road will be widened to 2x5 lanes, 2 reversible lanes and up to 20 - 22 lanes at interchange approaches (most of the section will actually feature 2x6 lanes plus 2 reversibles). Construction on that particular section will begin next year.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 06:49 PM   #6688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
Aye, around Rotterdam, Amsterdam, Utrecht and The Hague it is more or less like this. Outside the big cities it's a bit simpler/easier.

However, I am of the opinion drivers who find it all to ''complicated'' do not belong on the road here .
Thanks for welcoming me so warmly I used "complicated" for lack of a better translation. I could have written "complex", "non-linear", "baroque", but it's just a part of what I mean.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 06:53 PM   #6689
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On this short 25 kilometer section there are 10 exits, 4 motorway interchanges and 2 rest areas. And it isn't even considered to be particularly urban. That means 16 exit and 16 entrance points along this 25 km.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 07:04 PM   #6690
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Quote:
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Thanks for welcoming me so warmly I used "complicated" for lack of a better translation. I could have written "complex", "non-linear", "baroque", but it's just a part of what I mean.
What I meant is that people often fail with shoulder running, and the most right lane on the hard shoulder, is sometimes empty and people hog the middle and left lanes. They should all be heavily fined imho.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 07:52 PM   #6691
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What I meant is that people often fail with shoulder running, and the most right lane on the hard shoulder, is sometimes empty and people hog the middle and left lanes. They should all be heavily fined imho.
Quite express claims for someone who would like to see all speed controles burned out...

I personally find the shoulders running not so handy. I would prefer no shoulders instead. During the last trip to Utrecht and Muiden I did not use the shoulder on (A1 or A27 I think) and neither did 80 % of the traffic. The full stripes make the shoulder running in fact rather dangerous and not very transparent to use. I would prefer no shoulder at all to the shoulder running arrangement.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 08:02 PM   #6692
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People should get used to it really fast. It's not an optimal solution but along routes like the A1 through het Gooi there's not much else than can be done.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 08:07 PM   #6693
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People should get used to it really fast. It's not an optimal solution but along routes like the A1 through het Gooi there's not much else than can be done.
As I said, they culd have changed the shoulder into another lane... without keeping any shoulder. In case of need you could allways close the lane, with the same boards you now open the shoulder. Much more elegant solution in my eyes.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 08:13 PM   #6694
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Using the shoulder is not optional, it is obligatory if shoulder running is into operation. You could get an € 100 fine for not keeping right. It's not a truck lane.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 08:14 PM   #6695
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@Koesj A tunnel, there are plans for that, but it's extremely expensive.

The Netherlands is one of the few countries that has a lot of bridges that can open for ships in its highwaysystem.
A short list of bridges that can open for boats:
A1: Vechtbrug
N3: Merwedebrug; Wantijbrug
A4: Brug over de Oude Rijn
A6: Ketelbrug; Scharsterrijnbrug
A7: Brug over Westerwoldsche Aa (Bad Nieuweschans); Kruiswaterbrug(Bolsward), Stevinsluizen, Lorentzsluizen
N7: Julianabrug; Euvelgunnerbrug-2
A8: Coenbrug
A9: Zijkanaal C; Ringvaartbrug
A10: Schinkelbrug
A15: Botlekbrug (alternatief tunnel)
N15: Suurhoffbrug en Calandbrug.
A16: v Brienenoordbrug
A20: Giessenbrug
A27: Merwedebrug;
A29: Haringvlietbrug; Volkerakbrug
A44: Ringvaart ; Oude Rijn (Leiden)

When one of the bridges is defect it immediately causes chaos, especially if it's in de Randstad or kinda near every town with more then 50.000 inhabitants. The underlined bridge refused to work today. This is the result:

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Old February 24th, 2012, 08:20 PM   #6696
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Quote:
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@Koesj A tunnel, there are plans for that, but it's extremely expensive.
Yeah that's what I meant, there's no way it's going to be on the legislative agenda inside a decade after they just got done with the shoulder running thing.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 08:31 PM   #6697
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There are no plans for any tunnel there. It's just proposed by a few construction companies, nothing more. There is no money reserved for that in the MIRT long-term construction programme, it's not on the political agenda and there's not even a preliminary study for it.

There's basically nothing except for some work-hungry construction companies and a bunch of road enthusiasts.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 11:35 PM   #6698
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Quote:
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Using the shoulder is not optional, it is obligatory if shoulder running is into operation. You could get an € 100 fine for not keeping right. It's not a truck lane.
I keep to the right most of the time. With a shoulder running and many exits it is really uncertain whether the section you are coming to is open or not and for a driver that drives not in the area every day it is rather confusing, thus increasing the danger.

Situations like at 3,57 min in your video clearly show where is the problem with this concept. The road markings direct you from the road, and to the Bussum, whereas a driver that knows the road by head like you just drives on, because of shoulder running. If the markings on the road were adjusted it would be much more clearer and safer situation.

E.g. from the 4 min till 4,24 min there is no reason why the shoulder line should be full and not dashed, that is having another line instead of a shoulder.

Above that. I assume that every intersection cancels all the previous markings, thus at 4,30 you are not in a clear situation. Is there still shoulder running or not? Then again from 4,40 there is no reason why there should not be dashed line. The less markings changes on the road, the less information has the driver work with, the safer the road.

Constant changes from dashed into full line are much stronger impulse then the board display once in a few hundred meters. The brain has to work with much more information and makes much more decissions than if there is just dashed line and you know that you can use the lane. If the lane would be closed by the board display, you just have to check one information.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 11:40 PM   #6699
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Quote:
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Quite express claims for someone who would like to see all speed controles burned out...

I personally find the shoulders running not so handy. I would prefer no shoulders instead. During the last trip to Utrecht and Muiden I did not use the shoulder on (A1 or A27 I think) and neither did 80 % of the traffic. The full stripes make the shoulder running in fact rather dangerous and not very transparent to use. I would prefer no shoulder at all to the shoulder running arrangement.
Anything that reduces or hinders average travelling speed yeah. Our mobility has been reduced enough because of ''duurzaam veilig'', NIMBY whingers, eco morons, and finally a government who sees the motorist as a cash cow.
The infrastructure must grow with the demand.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 11:42 PM   #6700
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I agree the shoulder running work at the Bussum / Naarden exit is a bit sloppy. Normally it works like two exit lanes, now it's a through lane and a taper. It's not standard approach there.

The road markings of shoulder running have been subject to much debate, many people think they are unclear, and whether it's allowed to cross the solid line (answer: yes). I also think the signs are not activating enough. In Germany the signs say "drive on shoulder", in the Netherlands they say "shoulder open".
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