daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old February 27th, 2012, 02:03 PM   #6721
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,464
Likes (Received): 6164

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I don't think a section with a bascule bridge could ever be classified as "motorway" in Italy... I never saw a bascule bridge in my life, anyway...
Well we can't build a high bridge from hill to hill or from mountain to mountain. Not only do we not have bumps in the landscape we can use, the rivers usually flow at a higher altitude than the land itself. That means you have to go up to the top of the levee first.



It's a bit like high jumping at the Olympics... without the pole.

So if we need to cross a busy shipping river, a bascule bridge is a sensible way of doing it.

Unless the motorway is really extremely busy, then a tunnel of some sort might be worth the investment. But tunnels are notoriously hard to dig in swampy grounds.
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old February 27th, 2012, 02:14 PM   #6722
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

Most bascule bridges in Dutch motorways date back to the 1960's. For example the bridges on the A6, A9, A10, A16 we're all built in the 1960's or early 1970's. Most later 1970's bridges did not feature bascule bridges. It's noteworthy that most bascule bridges are not across major rivers, but across canals. The only exceptions to this rule are the A16 Van Brienenoordbrug and the A27 Merwedebrug.

The Van Brienenoordbrug was duplicated in 1990. They did not choose a higher bridge, but rather added an identical bridge next to it.

The Netherlands also has many river tunnels, and they are cost-effective (the regular immersion-method). The first such motorway tunnel was the Velser Tunnel in 1957 (A22, near Haarlem), but the downside of that tunnel is that the North Sea Canal cannot be deepened anymore because of the tunnel.

There are currently a number of major river crossings planned or under construction;

* A10 Second Coen Tunnel, U/C, completion in 2012
* A15 Rhine River Bridge: planned, completion around 2018
* A24 Blankenburg Tunnel: planned, completion around 2018 - 2020
* A50 Second Ewijk Waal Bridge: U/C, completion in 2014
* N50 Ramspol Bridge, U/C completion in 2013
* N62 Sluiskil Tunnel, U/C completion in 2015 (first bored river/canal tunnel)

Furthermore two bascule bridges are currently being replaced by aquaducts (a Dutch aquaduct is a road or rail tunnel underneath a waterway, usually shorter than 250 m)

* A1 Aquaduct Muiden
* A4 Oude Rijn Aquaduct

Maybe one day the A9 bascule bridge near Haarlem will be replaced by an aquaduct as well, but this is unlikely before 2020 as shoulder running has just been added.

There are also a number of land tunnels (not crossing any major waterways) under construction and planned. These tunnels are built to reduce impact on the urban environment.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2012, 02:17 PM   #6723
italystf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,460
Likes (Received): 2186

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza
I don't think a section with a bascule bridge could ever be classified as "motorway" in Italy... I never saw a bascule bridge in my life, anyway...
There are some on local roads in Italy. I know one on Lemene river in Concordia Sagittaria (VE) and another on the harbour of Marano Lagunare (UD). But having them on motorways is crazy, i would never imagine that such things exist.
__________________
“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
italystf no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2012, 02:19 PM   #6724
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,507
Likes (Received): 2117

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
Well we can't build a high bridge from hill to hill or from mountain to mountain. Not only do we not have bumps in the landscape we can use, the rivers usually flow at a higher altitude than the land itself. That means you have to go up to the top of the levee first.



It's a bit like high jumping at the Olympics... without the pole.

So if we need to cross a busy shipping river, a bascule bridge is a sensible way of doing it.

Unless the motorway is really extremely busy, then a tunnel of some sort might be worth the investment. But tunnels are notoriously hard to dig in swampy grounds.
I know what a bascule bridge is. It's just that I never saw one in real life.
g.spinoza no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2012, 02:22 PM   #6725
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

You can see the bascule chamber on this N50 Ramspol Bridge photo. The counterweight for the bridge moves inside the chamber if the bridge has to open. It's the largest object of this bridge, apart from the bridge deck itself.

image hosted on flickr

N50-26-02-2012-14 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2012, 02:26 PM   #6726
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

Here's another example of a bascule bridge, on the A10 Ring Road of Amsterdam. As most shipping on such waterways are yachts with masts, you have to construct quite a significant bridge there. The impact of such a bridge in an urban environment is considered too prohibitive. In this case it's next to a motorway interchange, which means it's nearly impossible to construct a high bridge or tunnel without exceptional cost.

This section carries approximately 200.000 vehicles per day. I don't know how often this bridge actually opens for boats, but I don't think it's very often.



ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2012, 03:11 PM   #6727
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,507
Likes (Received): 2117

Can I ask you gentlemen what do you make from this video?

http://video.repubblica.it/mondo/ola...o=&ref=HREC2-1

It's hosted on Italian newspaper "La Repubblica" but it's in English. It's about bicycle vs. car in the Netherlands.
g.spinoza no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2012, 03:27 PM   #6728
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

I think it's a bit too focused on a few locations. It's like those American tourists thinking nobody in the Netherlands drive because they think central Amsterdam is the same as the entire country.

Not really that much has changed. It's easy to achieve large percentages when the numbers are relatively insignificant. It should also be noted that historic city centers do not attract as much traffic as they used to in the 1960's, many functions like retail and jobs have relocated to locations better accessible by cars, retail mostly in subcenters in residential neighborhoods, and jobs along motorway locations. Nearly all major office centers in the Netherlands are outside the historic city core, Den Haag and Rotterdam being an exception.

The key to bicycle success is planning ahead. If you have to fit separate bicycle lanes in an existing road network, it won't work. It only worked in the 1970's because roads were much wider back then than nowadays. You can't fit a 3 meter bicycle path by taking away 3 meters from a 7 meter wide road. Every new urban development in the Netherlands from the 1960's on was built with cycling in mind. Separation of cyclists from motor vehicle traffic is the key to traffic safety, although it may lead to some socially unsafe situations in poorly designed bicycle/pedestrian tunnels, though such things can be addressed adequately by a proper design.

A lot of urbanites on Skyscrapercity think about separation of slow and fast traffic as a bad thing, but not all separation of slow and fast traffic equals poorly lit, graffiti'ed and inhabited by homeless tunnels. They can also look like this:
image hosted on flickr

Fietstunnel by Fietsberaad, on Flickr

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; February 27th, 2012 at 03:35 PM.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2012, 03:54 PM   #6729
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

It's also noteworthy about traffic safety that the "mass reduces risk" theory applies here. The absolute number of bicycle fatalities in the Netherlands remain relatively high, at 25% of all traffic fatalities. In 2010 162 fatalaties on a total of 640, although the 2010 numbers have been critized for being underreported.

Out of 162 bicycle fatalaties, 93 of them were people aged 65+. Only 9 of them were children below the age of 15. The chances of getting killed while cycling is still 6 times higher than by car, though not as bad as motorcyclists (35 times).


Another interesting point in the Netherlands is the mobility of young people (age 12 - 20), which is mainly attributed to the bicycle. This makes the Netherlands hard to compare to other countries, for instance we don't have a school bus system like some other countries because school children and students cycle, sometimes up to 20 kilometers one way.

Leisure cycling in the Netherlands is also much higher than in other countries, mainly due to our very well-developed bicycling infrastructure. You rarely have to cycle on roads where the speed limit is higher than 50 km/h, even in rural areas there are usually bicycle paths available, as opposed to the other country with a great bicycle imago, Denmark.

I think cycling is also the main competitor for city buses. For distances up to 5 or 6 kilometers, it's often faster to cycle than to use the bus, even if you're traveling along the same route. Transportation-wise, the bicycle is like a slower version of the car; ultimate freedom when it comes to options, travel times and availability.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2012, 03:58 PM   #6730
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,507
Likes (Received): 2117

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I think cycling is also the main competitor for city buses. For distances up to 5 or 6 kilometers, it's often faster to cycle than to use the bus, even if you're traveling along the same route. Transportation-wise, the bicycle is like a slower version of the car; ultimate freedom when it comes to options, travel times and availability.
If you are talking just about the Netherlands, I agree. In Italy bicycles are no competitors to buses: too many hilly cities
g.spinoza no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2012, 04:20 PM   #6731
woutero
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 294
Likes (Received): 41

EDIT: this was a response to the video and Chris' first response. You guys are quick!

I think things have changed considerably. Especially in older parts of cities, and really everywhere in The Netherlands (not just a few places): From all cities and towns in NL you can find a picture from the '60s of the central square in use as a car park, and almost all of them are pedestrianized now.

The 'conflict' is/was only in places where space is limited (roughly anything built before 1900). In these areas over the last 40 years space for cars has slowly been replaced with space for bikes and pedestrians. In most places you can still go by car, but the space for the roadway is usually less wide.

The video is right that the '70s were a turning point in that respect.

An inner city street in NL:
- Before the 70s: Space for cars minus the space needed for sidewalks/pedestrians and an occasional bike lane.
- After the 70s: space needed for cars (usually one narrow lane) + a bike lane (if there is enough space) + the rest is for pedestrians.

The effects have not stopped. Some statistics from Amsterdam:

From 1991 - 2011:
- Number of cars crossing the Singelgracht (entering the center of Amsterdam) decreased by 30%.
- Number of bicycles crossing the Singelgracht increased by 100% (doubled).

It also shows a different development as Chris points out (fewer office locations in the city center), but the number of visitors to the center has increased (not decreased as Chris suggests).

Newer areas don't really have this 'fight for space', because bicycle infrastructure has been an integral part of the design of public space since the '70s.

Here's an example of a random place in The Netherlands. It is in Sneek, a small town in the North:
1895:


1969:


Current (Streetview) (on a monday morning when the shops are closed...):


The video is relevant because most foreigners think that in NL we went from the 1895 situation to the 2012 situation, but they forget that we had the 1969 situation. In the US many places are still like the 1969 situation. I think seeing that it was like this in The Netherlands can help people understand that bike culture is something that can happen in other places too, as long as people want it.
woutero no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2012, 04:52 PM   #6732
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

It may also be noteworthy that the reduction of street parking was not necessarily a reduction of parking capacity, they have mostly moved underground. Numerous parking garages have been constructed and are under construction nowadays. The public space has not pushed the cars outside the city centers, they moved underground on the edges of the city center, or moved to newer parts of the city.

Many Dutch cities were relatively small until the 1950's, which means the city centers were the only place for significant retail. Nowadays every residential neighborhood of 10.000 - 20.000 inhabitants has their own little shopping center which are reasonably accessible by car, either with parking garages (newer shopping centers) or open air parking (1970's/80's shopping centers). You don't need to go into the city center anymore for daily errands. The only thing that never materialized in the Netherlands were big-box shopping malls like you see in Scandinavia, France or Eastern Europe. But that also has to do with population density and availability of retail, for instance in most Dutch cities there is always one or two major supermarkets within a 1 - 2 km range in a residential area. The concept of a "super-regional mall" does not really exist in the Netherlands because everything's nearby. Even in rural areas you don't often have to travel more than 10 -15 km to get to a larger supermarket.

That V&D store in the Sneek picture for example would have a parking garage nearby nowadays. Public space is too nice to turn into open air parking lots, but it doesn't mean you can't get in those areas by car at all anymore.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2012, 05:05 PM   #6733
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,536
Likes (Received): 21249

Quote:
Originally Posted by woutero View Post
The video is relevant because most foreigners think that in NL we went from the 1895 situation to the 2012 situation, but they forget that we had the 1969 situation. In the US many places are still like the 1969 situation. I think seeing that it was like this in The Netherlands can help people understand that bike culture is something that can happen in other places too, as long as people want it.
Terrain and weather, themselves, places a major block on any intention of increasing bike usage in many cities.

That is surely the case of Italy, where the flat cities (Milano, Torino, Bologna -part of) suffer from immense heat during summer and harsher winters than NL, and almost all major city not on the Pianura Padana (that flat, triangle-shaped area bisected by the Po River) has significant hills that make biking uncomfortable.

Many Italian city streets don't even have a sidewalk wider than 1m - if one at all. Moreover, seismic issues make underground parking a bit more challenging.

So I don't think it would be ever possble to export the Dutch model to Italy. Or for US, where many wannabes and apologists-activists try to pretend Europe is more (stereotypical) "European" than it actually is.

I doubt it would be even safe in terms of health to cycle 30km a day in places like Houston, Phoenix, Cleveland, Los Angeles, Miami, Denver. It is just too hot, too cold or too humid most of the year. And distances are WAY longer.

As Chris said, the main competitor to bikes in Netherlands are city buses. Many medium-sized Dutch cities have woefully lousy intra-city urban bus networks. Even if most areas are indeed covered, routes are circuitous and almost always terminate at a train station. Here in my city the bus network is so bad that they have a map on the train station suggesting people walk instead of take a bus for distances up to 15 minutes walking fast from the station!

Other thing to be noted is that NEtherlands is very poli-centric. Long commutes are not uncommon and for those bikes are useless.

===============

The video is pure garbage anyway, from a factual basis analysis. It starts painting auto traffic as necessarily bad, it ignores that rates of deaths on traffic plummeted throughout the developed World from the 1970s onwards, from US to France to Australia, and pays homage to hippies and other distasteful people who lives out of the excessive welfare policies of 1970s that plagued Western Europe at the time. I can't have any respect for a documentary that puts vandals (like people trashing street signs and painting bike lanes themselves) in a good light.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!

Last edited by Suburbanist; February 27th, 2012 at 05:18 PM.
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2012, 06:12 PM   #6734
woutero
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 294
Likes (Received): 41

Did you just say "factual basis analysis" and "hippies and other distasteful people who lives out of the excessive welfare policies of 1970s" in the same paragraph?

The 'Dutch model' as far as I'm concerned is having transport options, and coming up with pragmatic solutions to organizing public space, trying to give all road users some space.

Your argument sums up what is wrong with this discussion in most places: far too polarized.
Cyclists are characterized as lefty hippies and you assume a lot about their intentions. Cyclist advocates on the other hand are usually too idealistic and 'victimy'.
It's not the cold war, it's just about sharing public space.

No-one is forcing anybody to ride 30km commutes.
No-one is saying these things are universally applicable to all places in the world.
No-one is saying it is a solution to commute traffic problems.

Also, Dutch climate and terrain are not unique. It gets hot here sometimes. Or really cold. Or snowy. And it rains all the time. Still many people choose to cycle.

What the video is saying is that our cycling infrastructure did not come naturally, but has its origin in a grassroots movement by regular people.

@ suburbanist: I don't understand how you always promote an individual's free choice, but only if he chooses to drive a car to a home in the suburbs.

Last edited by woutero; February 27th, 2012 at 06:21 PM.
woutero no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2012, 06:23 PM   #6735
italystf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,460
Likes (Received): 2186

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle
school children and students cycle, sometimes up to 20 kilometers one way.
Sorry, but this seems very unlikely to me. Children and students leaving at 7 a.m. in the morning and returning home at 3 p.m. because they cycle 40km every day even with rain, snow, cold even if there PT avaliable? Maybe within 5km but 20 seems exagerate. And are parents happy to leave their 10 yo children to cycle alone from city to city?
__________________
“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
italystf no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2012, 06:26 PM   #6736
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

Clubs like Fietsberaad are pretty radical though. Replace the word "bicycle" by "car" in their speeches and advocacy and they look like total idiots.

Denmark is also known as a "bicycle country" though I found it hardly a comparison to the Netherlands. Their cities have reasonably good bicycle infrastructure by Dutch standards but it's not nearly as good in the countryside. Besides that, Denmark is not as flat as the Netherlands, there are rolling hills nearly everywhere, making cycling more like a workout than a comfortable ride. I haven't seen as many cyclists on the Danish countryside as I've seen in the Netherlands. The worst hill you can get in most of the Netherlands is a 5 meter dike or a bicycle overpass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Sorry, but this seems very unlikely to me. Children and students leaving at 7 a.m. in the morning and returning home at 3 p.m. because they cycle 40km every day even with rain, snow, cold even if there PT avaliable? Maybe within 5km but 20 seems exagerate. And are parents happy to leave their 10 yo children to cycle alone from city to city?
Oh yes, it's very common for high school students. I've had many students in my class who cycled 15 - 20 kilometer one way to work. Just over an hour usually. Elementary school children not so much. Many parents are cheapskates when it comes to the transportation of their children. Some may pay for the bus if weather is really bad, but it's not uncommon to see groups of students cycling in the unprotected plains in "weather and wind" as the Dutch say I myself lived in the same city I went to school so I cycled about 5 km one way.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2012, 06:33 PM   #6737
italystf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,460
Likes (Received): 2186

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist
So I don't think it would be ever possble to export the Dutch model to Italy.
Not everywhere off course but in many places we can. And we should.
__________________
“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
italystf no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2012, 06:36 PM   #6738
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,536
Likes (Received): 21249

Quote:
Originally Posted by woutero View Post
Your argument sums up what is wrong with this discussion in most places: far too polarized.
Cyclists are characterized as lefty hippies and you assume a lot about their intentions. Cyclist advocates on the other hand are usually too idealistic and 'victimy'.
It's not the cold war, it's just about sharing public space.
Agreed. Most cyclists are not lefties anyway. They are bike path users. I myself used to cycle for fitness purposes 20km every morning or afternoon if it weren't raining.

What I question is this "feel good, you are a superior being because you cycle" tone of most documentaries and pieces of work foreign people do about transportation in The Netherlands. Here in my university, I was only frowned upon for my transportation economic views one by a Dutch person, but couple times by fellow foreigners (category I belong to anyway) that chose to move here also for its "superior" transportation, for instance.

I've also watched many videos and read some blogs that paint the "struggle against the car dominance" as it were WW3. And people that view car drivers as the enemy trench usually resort to outright propaganda and manipulation of facts. Which is what that documentary did.

Quote:
What the video is saying is that our cycling infrastructure did not come naturally, but has its origin in a grassroots movement by regular people.
But now, it has been taken over extremists that vow to reduce speed limits on rural roads even when there is a physically separated bike path well beyond the shoulder, of pushing for even more expensive parking fees to "encourage cycling", or wanting to take their bikes on trains during peak times, when this behavior is highly disruptive for fellow passengers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Sorry, but this seems very unlikely to me. Children and students leaving at 7 a.m. in the morning and returning home at 3 p.m. because they cycle 40km every day even with rain, snow, cold even if there PT avaliable? Maybe within 5km but 20 seems exagerate. And are parents happy to leave their 10 yo children to cycle alone from city to city?
I know more than 8 acquaintances in a whim that cycled more than 10km to school every day, one-way. That is more common on high-school: it is a tiered system with 4 different tracks. Add to that ample school choice parents have. Essentially, parents can enroll their children in whatever school they want and the kid/teen is deemed fit to attend, but they are responsible for transporting the children there.

Buses are often inefficient and students cycle a lot.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2012, 07:04 PM   #6739
italystf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,460
Likes (Received): 2186

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist
wanting to take their bikes on trains during peak times
There should be a room reserved to bicycles in every train.

BTW, cycling is better than PT for short distances because you go directly from A to B instead walk from A to the bus station, wait for the bus and walk from the other bus station to B. This in case of clement weather and lack of steep sections of road. Commuting 15-20 km by bicycle isn't convenient unless you want to lose weight or you are so stinghy that you don't want to pay the bus.
__________________
“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
italystf no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2012, 08:00 PM   #6740
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2155

Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
There should be a room reserved to bicycles in every train.
...
Commuting 15-20 km by bicycle isn't convenient unless you want to lose weight or you are so stinghy that you don't want to pay the bus.
First, if you commute regularly by train to another city, you simply have another bike at the train station waiting for you. No need to take it with you.

...

15 km biking in the netherlands in a city should not take you more then 40 minutes. In most of the cities you dont bike more then 10 kms from the place where you live to your work, school etc. Farmer kids on the countryside may in excess cases bike around 20 km to the shool or station.

If you have to take the bus in a city, it will take you 20 minutes, and you will have to wait for it another 20 minutes (at least).... I personally took the bus few times when it was really raining cats and dogs.

Bike is simply the best transportation choice in any dutch city, when you dont need to transport something else then just yourself and when you are not a one time visitor.
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
congestion, dutch, friesland, highways, motorways, netherlands

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium