daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old March 22nd, 2012, 01:41 PM   #6861
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,464
Likes (Received): 6164

For all you train-bashers out there: a major railway disruption around Amsterdam resulted in significantly larger traffic jams than normal during this morning's rush hour.

So, as I always say: hate the trains, don't hate the passengers. Thanks to those people, the roads are less congested than they would otherwise be.
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old March 22nd, 2012, 01:41 PM   #6862
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

Nice aerial of the Jan Blanken Bridge near Vianen. It carries 10 lanes of the A2 motorway. This photo was taken after the widening of the general purpose lanes from 6 to 8 lanes in 2011. Next to it is the obsolete arch bridge from 1936, which is awaiting demolition.


credit: https://beeldbank.rws.nl, Rijkswaterstaat / Joop van Houdt
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 22nd, 2012, 01:53 PM   #6863
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
For all you train-bashers out there: a major railway disruption around Amsterdam resulted in significantly larger traffic jams than normal during this morning's rush hour.

So, as I always say: hate the trains, don't hate the passengers. Thanks to those people, the roads are less congested than they would otherwise be.
It was a perfect example of how little communication there is between rail and road traffic. Tens of thousands of people were stranded but traffic volumes were only slightly up by several hundred vehicles an hour, resulting in somewhat longer congestion than normal, but nothing exceptional. Only A7 and A9 saw more congestion than they normally do, but it was limited to a few additional kilometers and traffic congestion lasted about half an hour to an hour longer than usual. Not any different than if there was to be an accident on those motorways. The bulk of the train passengers do not have an alternative.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 22nd, 2012, 01:56 PM   #6864
Godius
Nitimur in vetitum
 
Godius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Leeuwarden
Posts: 2,588
Likes (Received): 4069

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Nice aerial of the Jan Blanken Bridge near Vianen. It carries 10 lanes of the A2 motorway. This photo was taken after the widening of the general purpose lanes from 6 to 8 lanes in 2011. Next to it is the obsolete arch bridge from 1936, which is awaiting demolition.


credit: https://beeldbank.rws.nl, Rijkswaterstaat / Joop van Houdt
Do you know if that arch could or will be reused (in another infrastructure project)? Or has it reached the end of it's cycle?
Godius no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 22nd, 2012, 02:00 PM   #6865
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godius View Post
Do you know if that arch could or will be reused (in another infrastructure project)? Or has it reached the end of it's cycle?
The arch bridge opened to traffic in 1936 (like many other arch bridges in the Netherlands), and handled all traffic until 1999, when the new bridge opened. The arch bridge hasn't been used ever since.

Some want to keep it as a historical landmark, some want to use it for a tramway to Vianen, but the main problem is it's structurally deficient, and requires large-scale renovation, running into the tens of millions of euros. The best solution is to demolish it, as it doesn't have specific historic value (there are many similar bridges still in operation in the Netherlands).

Similar arch bridges from the 1930's;

* Katerveer Bridge in Zwolle: 1930
* John Frost Bridge in Arnhem: 1935
* Waal Bridge in Nijmegen: 1936
* Meern Bridge in Utrecht: 1936
* Noord Bridge in Alblasserdam: 1939
* Wilhelmina Bridge in Deventer: 1943
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 22nd, 2012, 03:00 PM   #6866
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,464
Likes (Received): 6164

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It was a perfect example of how little communication there is between rail and road traffic. Tens of thousands of people were stranded but traffic volumes were only slightly up by several hundred vehicles an hour, resulting in somewhat longer congestion than normal, but nothing exceptional. Only A7 and A9 saw more congestion than they normally do, but it was limited to a few additional kilometers and traffic congestion lasted about half an hour to an hour longer than usual. Not any different than if there was to be an accident on those motorways. The bulk of the train passengers do not have an alternative.
Uhuh, now picture all those people stranded in train stations buying cars.
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 22nd, 2012, 03:14 PM   #6867
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

Most rush hour train passengers cannot afford to buy a car, let alone drive one every day and pay Amsterdam parking fees and you know it The few that do used their cars today.

Maybe as much as 100.000 passengers were stranded this morning, nearly all of them are inbound travelers to Amsterdam. Although congestion was worse than on a normal dry day, it was not exceptional. Inbound traffic volumes were a few thousand vehicles higher on both A7 and A9, and some regional routes. This particularly affected A7 because this motorway has no spare capacity. A9 is also not too good with the situation in Badhoevedorp where there is no shoulder running.

Today's situation, like long-term strikes, confirmed the communication between road and rail is pretty minimal.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 22nd, 2012, 03:18 PM   #6868
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,507
Likes (Received): 2117

How many motorcycles are used in Dutch motorways and inside cities? They contribute very little to traffic jams and are affordable (with respect to a car).
g.spinoza no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 22nd, 2012, 03:22 PM   #6869
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

Motorcycles generally account for less than one percent of the traffic volumes. However, scooters and mopeds are pretty popular for intracity travel and contribute considerably to the poor air quality in some streets. Mopeds have been dubbed "particle cannons" because they pollute just as much as a heavy truck. Attempts have been made in recent years to improve emission standards of mopeds but it's still a far cry from automobile engines.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 22nd, 2012, 03:31 PM   #6870
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,507
Likes (Received): 2117

Yes, I know about moped but I was actually referring to 4-stroke-engine motorcycles. In Italy 4-stroke-engine scooters are used a lot, especially inside cities. They shouldn't pollute more than cars.
g.spinoza no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 22nd, 2012, 04:08 PM   #6871
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

Motorcycles are chiefly for recreational usage, although a small number of commuters use it as well, at least outside the winter period. On warm and dry weekends you can spot numerous motorcycles.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 22nd, 2012, 04:12 PM   #6872
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,507
Likes (Received): 2117

In Bologna I could often spot more motorcycles than cars, even in weekdays. They're used mainly to commute, I think. At least there.
g.spinoza no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 22nd, 2012, 04:17 PM   #6873
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

Some quarterly statistics.

Q4 2011:

3.2 million kilometer-minutes of traffic jams. 27% less than in Q4 2010.
119.000 kilometer-minutes are the result of roadworks, which is 3.8% of all congestion and is the lowest level since 2006.

Overall 2011 recorded 5.1% of the traffic congestion as a result of roadworks, which is fairly low, compared to other countries, especially Germany and Belgium, where they usually record double-digit congestion due to roadworks.

Rijkswaterstaat sold 3.900 discounted train tickets in Q4 2011, overall in 2011, 33.000 train tickets were sold (special train tickets for people who wish to avoid congestion by traveling by train). This is less than the 53.000 tickets sold in 2010, chiefly because there were less obstructive roadworks in 2011 than there were in 2010.

71% of the road users were satisfied with the way roadworks are being dealt with by Rijkswaterstaat. It's the first time this level is over 70%.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 22nd, 2012, 04:20 PM   #6874
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,464
Likes (Received): 6164

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Most rush hour train passengers cannot afford to buy a car, let alone drive one every day and pay Amsterdam parking fees and you know it The few that do used their cars today.
What is that claim based on exactly? Because it's exactly 180 degrees removed from my experiences when I spent a whole year commuting by train in 2008. My commute was Middelburg-The Hague. As you know, most people in Zeeland own cars because there's no local public transport to speak of. However, people who commute to outside the province usually prefer to take the train because of traffic jams and the excellent intercity service from Vlissingen to Amsterdam.

When Prorail had to carry out major maintenance in 2008, there were no trains in Zeeland for a whole month. They were replaced by buses. As a result, most people who commuted drove their cars to work instead (as did I). It was noticeably busier on the A58 as a consequence with considerable slow traffic and jams around Goes.

Also, the cheapest subscription to commute with NS from Zeeland to The Hague costs between 350-375 euro per month depending on your exact railway station in Zeeland. People who can afford that, can certainly afford to commute by car instead.

So who exactly are these train passengers who can't afford to take the car instead? Students and seniors? They don't travel in rush hour anyway.

Quote:
Maybe as much as 100.000 passengers were stranded this morning, nearly all of them are inbound travelers to Amsterdam. Although congestion was worse than on a normal dry day, it was not exceptional. Inbound traffic volumes were a few thousand vehicles higher on both A7 and A9, and some regional routes. This particularly affected A7 because this motorway has no spare capacity. A9 is also not too good with the situation in Badhoevedorp where there is no shoulder running.

Today's situation, like long-term strikes, confirmed the communication between road and rail is pretty minimal.
No, it confirmed that when people are caught off-guard, they are incapable of taking the car. That's no surprise. And it's why Utrecht Centraal Station was overcrowded. Thousands of people were told about the disruption in Amsterdam when they were already on the train from cities like Apeldoorn and 's-Hertogenbosch. Of course they can't then suddenly take the car. Instead they end up stranded at Utrecht Centraal.

Long term and serious disruptions (such as the one in Zeeland I experienced a few years ago) that are planned (so people can anticipate) cause people to take the car. Of course it does, what the hell else can they do?
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 22nd, 2012, 04:23 PM   #6875
Christina92
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 6
Likes (Received): 0

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The amount of highway in Netherlands was 2346 km. ( more than for example Spain )
total size if NL is 33.875 km2 , so the highest desity of highways in the world
Christina92 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 22nd, 2012, 04:29 PM   #6876
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,507
Likes (Received): 2117

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christina92 View Post
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The amount of highway in Netherlands was 2346 km. ( more than for example Spain )
I really don't think so
g.spinoza no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 22nd, 2012, 04:32 PM   #6877
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
Also, the cheapest subscription to commute with NS from Zeeland to The Hague costs between 350-375 euro per month depending on your exact railway station in Zeeland. People who can afford that, can certainly afford to commute by car instead.
Vlissingen - The Hague is 150 kilometers one way. Few people would likely commute that on a daily basis, but if they would, it would cost them approximately € 450 per week. Car costs are more than just fuel costs, most cars cost at least € 0.30 per kilometer to drive. Part of that is compensated by the € 0.19 per km employer compensation, however many employers compensate 100% of the train cost, especially if you work in (semi) government. Furthermore, car commuting compensation is often capped at around 40 kilometers one way.

Besides, students not traveling during rush hour? How do they get to university which usually starts around 8.30 - 9 am?

As a matter of fact, multi-day strikes have shown us the effect on roads decreases by the day, rather than increases. Day one is usually the most chaotic, especially if people are not prepared (such as rescheduling appointments), however day two and three are back to normal.

It's a known fact there is little communication between public transport and roads. Every new motorway study in the Randstad confirms it, usually effects of 1% or less are cited, for example in the "Rotterdam Vooruit" study, chiefly because the people for whom public transport is a reasonable (or only) alternative are already using it. The competition between roads and public transport is mainly in the mind of rail-advocates. Even with congestion, door-to-door travel is faster by car in 90% of the times.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 22nd, 2012, 04:47 PM   #6878
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,464
Likes (Received): 6164

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Vlissingen - The Hague is 150 kilometers one way. Few people would likely commute that on a daily basis, but if they would, it would cost them approximately € 450 per week. Car costs are more than just fuel costs, most cars cost at least € 0.30 per kilometer to drive. Part of that is compensated by the € 0.19 per km employer compensation, however many employers compensate 100% of the train cost, especially if you work in (semi) government. Furthermore, car commuting compensation is often capped at around 40 kilometers one way.
I got 0% compensation for my train travel

There's shockingly many people who commute vast distances on a daily basis btw, I was stunned the first couple of weeks at all the familiar faces every day

I really think the difference in costs are fairly negligible, especially because the car is more comfortable. Unless your office and your house are both near railway stations, the train sucks.

Quote:
Besides, students not traveling during rush hour? How do they get to university which usually starts around 8.30 - 9 am?
Most of them live in the city where they study. The Monday morning trains are always swamped with students carrying giant bags of laundry But I never saw them during the rest of the week.

Quote:
As a matter of fact, multi-day strikes have shown us the effect on roads decreases by the day, rather than increases. Day one is usually the most chaotic, especially if people are not prepared (such as rescheduling appointments), however day two and three are back to normal.
A handful of days proves little, imo. Rescheduling appointments? You can't do that for a whole month.

In that light, it's kind of a shame that all the major reconstructions of railway stations don't come with any closures. If they would close Rotterdam Centraal for 2 weeks, I think we'd get a clearer picture of the relation between rail and road.

Quote:
It's a known fact there is little communication between public transport and roads. Every new motorway study in the Randstad confirms it, usually effects of 1% or less are cited, for example in the "Rotterdam Vooruit" study, chiefly because the people for whom public transport is a reasonable (or only) alternative are already using it. The competition between roads and public transport is mainly in the mind of rail-advocates. Even with congestion, door-to-door travel is faster by car in 90% of the times.
Cars are better, but slightly more expensive. If the quality of the railways is seriously diminished, people will opt for the car in my experience.

Building a railway is no competition for necessary widenings of motorways. I agree with that. The HSL in no way affects the growth of traffic on the A4 and the A4 needs widening (and finishing, but let's not get into that ).

My priority, personally, lies with the people who take the train now. They are often portrayed as relatively poor schmucks who can't afford to buy a car. That's simply not true in my experience. In fact, many of them already own a car. Their reasons for taking the train are diverse: they enjoy working on their laptops during their travel, or their partner takes the car to work, or the train is (slightly) cheaper.
But if we significantly reduce the quality of the railway network, more people will take the car. As for Zeeland, two years ago there was talk of closing the railway line completely. At that point people have a choice: take the car or move (or quit your job).
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 22nd, 2012, 04:57 PM   #6879
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

Well, nobody's talking about downgrading the railway network in any way. Despite what some people think, our public transport network is one of the best in Europe, it has nationwide high frequency, something you won't find in rural Germany or France for instance.

However with core-core being the least common travel patterns, personal transport is bound to remain the most efficient way of transportation. Public transport and personal road transport cater very different audiences, with relatively little overlap. However, most of the rhetoric is to "lure the motorist out of their cars" to justify large investments while in practice this barely happens. Just today I've read about the 4 sprinters an hour between Harderwijk and Utrecht, and how it will hopefully reduce congestion on A28. There is one thing that will surely reduce congestion on A28, and that is the current widening to 2x3 lanes.

Road widenings have much more effect on reducing traffic congestion than a similar investment in public transport would ever have, just look at the A2 widenings.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 22nd, 2012, 05:06 PM   #6880
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,464
Likes (Received): 6164

We agree there. The railway enthusiasts argue falsely that these investments reduce congestion on motorways. However, the other side of the argument goes that we should significantly reduce investments in railways and spend the money on roads instead. I'm not in favor of that one either. Both are a little extreme imo.
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
congestion, dutch, friesland, highways, motorways, netherlands

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium