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Old April 3rd, 2012, 11:29 AM   #6941
ChrisZwolle
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I don't think the "people want to live one hour from work" will fly. First of all, nearly all travel cost compensations by car are capped at a monthly maximum. If you live 1 hour from work (80 -100 kilometers), this means you have to spend a lot of money on travel cost which is not compensated. Furthermore, the € 0.19 per kilometer you do get compensated covers only half the real cost of commuting by car. In other words; commuting by car is expensive, especially if you're talking about long distances. Living 100 kilometers from work means your commuting cost is circa € 1.400 per month. Unless you drive a lease car, not a single employer will compensate those commuting costs entirely, not even close. What you save on cheaper housing is thrown away with higher commuting cost.

Secondly, the "1 hour" rule only exists because of the previously severe congestion, 1 hour could mean only 30 kilometers in western/central Netherlands. You're not always able to find decent and affordable housing within 10 or 20 minutes from work, especially if you consider that a lot of families have two incomes (i.e. two jobs to commute to, not rarely in different directions, so living somewhere is a compromise between commuting time/distance, social mobility, affordability and the appeal of a neighborhood or city).

Furthermore, it has also been acknowledged that traffic volumes do not grow as fast as they did in the 1990's. So a road improvement project has a much longer effect than it would have 10 or 15 years ago. A few corridors though, may need another widening in 15 years, and I'm specifically thinking about A4 near Leiden, but that's where they saved the additional space for. It can easily be widened to 2x5 lanes without expropriation or high cost.

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; April 3rd, 2012 at 12:01 PM. Reason: typo
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Old April 3rd, 2012, 11:39 AM   #6942
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zwanneman2 View Post
An article in the Volkskrant this morning (Dutch, here is a terrible translation, Note that the dutch word "file" means trafficjam, somehow Google translate decided to translate that in file... )

Anyway. the Volkskrant does not agree with most of you. Their line of thought can be summarized as follows:
  1. Congestion has decreased due to the extra motorway lanes
  2. People choose their living location based on the travel time to their work, not on the distance
  3. People move further away from their work as due to the lower congestion
  4. Congestion will thus increase again
I do not fully agree with this but I do think we cannot yet say whether the extra motorway lanes will have a lasting effect on congestion.
Interesting, but why would anybody deliberately move further away from their workplace?
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Old April 3rd, 2012, 11:42 AM   #6943
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Interesting, but why would anybody deliberately move further away from their workplace?
Because they can get a nicer house there in the country?
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Old April 3rd, 2012, 11:52 AM   #6944
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I suppose so if that's your kind of thing (from what I know, it's not as though there's much recreational access to the countryside in the Netherlands). It half-sounded to me as though people have a set journey time in their head so if it reduces, they'll automatically move further away to prevent this! If my journey time to work reduced I'd probably stay put and enjoy it.
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Old April 3rd, 2012, 02:59 PM   #6945
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First of all, I agree with the widenings that were undergone and I think they had to be done. And I dont really think that what the Volkskrant presented will induce reasonable traffic problems.

On the other hand. There is certainly correlation between the speed of transport and availability of commuting and the distance between work and housing. The whole idea of suburbia is just silent proof of that.

In general more people (especially families) preffer nice enviroment, own house, lots of nature and sort of quiet neighbourhood to the downtown. This prefference is pronounced as we go up on the income scale. Higher income also means that the only thing that matter is time and not the costs. Because time is the most precious comodity we have at certain point it becomes the only limit we have, for everyone. With higher incomes the only limit to the commuters is the time and comfort it takes from them. Not the money it costs.


That being said, I dont think that would be a big problem in the Netherlands, because most of the nice places in the West are already taken by the people and the east west distance is just too big for daily commuting. The cites already depopulated substantially in the NL as well. Neverthless there is still some demand for new suburbia, especially due to the high number of poor immigrants that often start in a city and move to their own house in suburbia along the way.
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Old April 3rd, 2012, 03:08 PM   #6946
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The Dutch policy has always been to add housing to existing cities (i.e. the VINEX locations). Only a few cities have been nearly brand-new, like Zoetermeer, Hoofddorp or Purmerend.

The Netherlands is very polycentric. If you live in say, Alphen aan den Rijn, Hoofddorp, Almere or Zoetermeer, you can commute to various cities. There is also a lot of intercity commuting, i.e. someone commutes from the residential areas of Utrecht to Amsterdam or Rotterdam. This is also reflected in the traffic volumes, many motorways have both high inbound and outbound traffic during the morning and evening rush hour. For example, A12 immediately west of Utrecht has more outbound than inbound traffic in the morning.
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Old April 3rd, 2012, 03:48 PM   #6947
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I don't think the "people want to live one hour from work" will fly. First of all, nearly all travel cost compensations by car are capped at a monthly maximum. If you live 1 hour from work (80 -100 kilometers), this means you have to spend a lot of money on travel cost which is not compensated. Furthermore, the € 0.19 per kilometer you do get compensated covers only half the real cost of commuting by car. In other words; commuting by car is expensive, especially if you're talking about long distances. Living 100 kilometers from work means your commuting cost is circa € 1.400 per month. Unless you drive a lease car, not a single employer will compensate those commuting costs entirely, not even close. What you save on cheaper housing is thrown away with higher commuting cost.

Secondly, the "1 hour" rule only exists because of the previously severe congestion, 1 hour could mean only 30 kilometers in western/central Netherlands. You're not always able to find decent and affordable housing within 10 or 20 minutes from work, especially if you consider that a lot of families have two incomes (i.e. two jobs to commute to, not rarely in different directions, so living somewhere is a compromise between commuting time/distance, social mobility, affordability and the appeal of a neighborhood or city).

Furthermore, it has also been acknowledged that traffic volumes do not grow as fast as they did in the 1990's. So a road improvement project has a much longer effect than it would have 10 or 15 years ago. A few corridors though, may need another widening in 15 years, and I'm specifically thinking about A4 near Leiden, but that's where they saved the additional space for. It can easily be widened to 2x5 lanes without expropriation or high cost.
Why those 19 eurocents per kilometer still is in use? Doesn't compensate the travel cost at all. I remember when I started working and commuting in NL diesel costs less than 1 euro. Now with almost 1.50 Euro/l still this 0.19 EURO is taking into calculation. Any plans to change this? Or this just to decrease number of commuter on motorways?
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Old April 3rd, 2012, 03:53 PM   #6948
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I remember about 10 years ago in my first contract where it said "the travel compensation will be adjusted to the oil price". Back then oil was less than $ 40 per barrel. Now it's more than double that and it's still € 0.19 per km, it's not even adjusted for inflation.
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Old April 3rd, 2012, 04:50 PM   #6949
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
In general more people (especially families) preffer nice enviroment, own house, lots of nature and sort of quiet neighbourhood to the downtown. This prefference is pronounced as we go up on the income scale. Higher income also means that the only thing that matter is time and not the costs. Because time is the most precious comodity we have at certain point it becomes the only limit we have, for everyone. With higher incomes the only limit to the commuters is the time and comfort it takes from them. Not the money it costs.
With the demographic changes that have been going on for the last couple of decades, and which will continue well into the future, I'm not even sure if you'll see an increase in preference for rural or suburban living. There's going to be way more single or two person households who might as well like living in the city more because of all the options it gives (retail, entertainment etc.)
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Old April 3rd, 2012, 08:56 PM   #6950
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I recorded two videos of provincial highways last weekend.

First: N322 / N323 Ewijk - Echteld. This is partially a new road (the middle section), which opened in 2011.



Second: N233 Ochten -Veenendaal. This is the only non-motorway that crosses the Rhine River system between Arnhem and Rotterdam.

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Old April 4th, 2012, 12:04 PM   #6951
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N62 Zeeland province

The N62 will be widened to a 2x2 expressway between A58 and the existing expressway towards Terneuzen, but a year later than planned, due to expropriation difficulties, which are now solved. The works will be completed in 2014. A half stack interchange will be constructed between N62 and N254 near 's-Heerenhoek. This will provide uninterrupted access from the A58 motorway towards the Zeeuws-Vlaanderen region.

map:


stack N62/N254:


new A58 interchange:
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Old April 4th, 2012, 12:40 PM   #6952
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mappero View Post
Why those 19 eurocents per kilometer still is in use? Doesn't compensate the travel cost at all. I remember when I started working and commuting in NL diesel costs less than 1 euro. Now with almost 1.50 Euro/l still this 0.19 EURO is taking into calculation. Any plans to change this? Or this just to decrease number of commuter on motorways?
There are even rumors they want to lower the taxfree 19 eurocents per kilometer to 12 eurocents per kilometer.
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Old April 4th, 2012, 12:48 PM   #6953
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The new A74-A61 link is already in Google Maps. That's what I call up-to-date.

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Old April 4th, 2012, 01:00 PM   #6954
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Is A74 the shortest, competed motorway in Nederlands??
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Old April 4th, 2012, 01:02 PM   #6955
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It competes with A38 (2km), A205 (2 km) and A256 (2km)
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Old April 4th, 2012, 02:52 PM   #6956
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A74 opens to traffic

The A74 has officially been inaugurated around noon today. Dutch Minister Melanie Schultz, and German Federal Minister Peter Ramsauer and State Minister Harry Voigtsberger have inaugurated the motorway by revealing a small monument at the border. The new motorway is six kilometers long, two in the Netherlands (A74) and four in Germany (A61). Vehicular traffic can use it from Thursday morning at 5 or 6 am. The motorway opens in time for the important agricultural and flower exhibition "Floriade" near Venlo. The new motorway will also relieve the city of Venlo of 1.5 million truck movements per year.

The new A74 looking west. The new ecoduct Wambach is in the foreground.


Roadside monument

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; April 4th, 2012 at 05:49 PM.
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Old April 4th, 2012, 04:20 PM   #6957
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A27 Hooipolder - Lunetten

Unfortunately there is also some not-so-good news. The available budget of € 720 million for the A27 widening from motorway interchange Hooipolder to motorway interchange Lunetten is by far not enough to fund the preferred alternative, and basically also not a downscaled version of that alternative.

They are now going with alternative E, where three priorities are picked out;

* Houten - Everdingen, widening to 4 lanes (southbound ONLY!)
* Scheiwijk rest area - Werkendam, widening to 2x4 lanes (keep existing bridge)
* Motorway interchange Hooipolder improvement, design depends on budget.

The other subprojects can only be widened if money is left over from the priority plans, which is quite unlikely given the already somewhat substandard designs for the prioritized parts. Additional funding is not likely to become available until 2020. The priority projects are likely to be carried out between 2014 and 2020.

The main reason why this project is so costly is the fact the A27 motorway crosses 4 major waterways, and each of them requires new bridges to accommodate a widening.

I translated the map of alternative E:
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Old April 4th, 2012, 06:37 PM   #6958
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A2/A76 Interchange Kerensheide

Nice aerial photo of the Kerensheide motorway interchange flyover under construction. It will carry traffic from the north to the east, the heaviest exiting flow on this cloverleaf. It is planned to open to traffic in early 2013.

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Old April 5th, 2012, 08:31 AM   #6959
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Something weird happened yesterday and I cant recall that from any previous border crossings, although I am not sure. When we came from Germany on A37 by Emmen we were flashed. We were driving well under 120 at that time and I am not aware of any speed limit at this particullar crossing. It happened right at the border. Is it something about the new border cameras policy? Thx for answer.

Last edited by Surel; April 8th, 2012 at 08:44 PM.
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Old April 5th, 2012, 10:48 AM   #6960
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I mentioned this before here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=5942
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