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Old April 20th, 2012, 03:22 PM   #7021
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kids should not be playing on streets of any kind (even fast bike traffic is dangerous). They should play on playgrounds (!) and designated areas and parks/greenery.
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Old April 20th, 2012, 03:26 PM   #7022
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On this, I agree 100%
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Old April 20th, 2012, 08:34 PM   #7023
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I agree that kids should not play on streets. But if there is litte of other public area then the streets as it is in many dutch housing areas then there is litte left of the social life for the kids, especially the smaller ones. Most of the houses have also no to little garden that doesnt really help it. It is not about where should they be, but about where they are.

It is for me interesting to compare following pictures from CZ and NL The kids from Ostrava or Amsterdam dont really need wonerf, although they live in the block houses they have lots of space to play outside. The kids from Bohumin might need a woonerf, but most of the houses have quite big gardens to compensate. On the pictures from Wolvega and Zwolle there is clearly little space besides the roads and houses left.

This has to do with the NL spacial problems, there is just not enoug place for things. Of course the solution can be have everything institutionalized - also the kids free time. But I guess that kills social life and creates atomized society. Notice that kids just love to play with the kids from the neigbours and socilize. Right here I must say I am the proponent of the kids freedom to have some place to do the things they want to do with their neigbour friends. The last 100 meters to your house doesnt seem like a place that couldnt live with the respect of the automobile drivers for this. Thus I understand why woonerf seems to me a good concept. (and also because people in my neigberhood demaand it in fact .

CZ: Ostrava commies blocks


CZ: Bohumin, residential


NL: Amsterdam blocks



NL: Wolvega


NL: Zwolle, residential

Last edited by Surel; April 20th, 2012 at 08:41 PM.
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Old April 21st, 2012, 12:32 PM   #7024
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
I agree that kids should not play on streets. But if there is litte of other public area then the streets as it is in many dutch housing areas then there is litte left of the social life for the kids, especially the smaller ones. Most of the houses have also no to little garden that doesnt really help it. It is not about where should they be, but about where they are.

It is for me interesting to compare following pictures from CZ and NL The kids from Ostrava or Amsterdam dont really need wonerf, although they live in the block houses they have lots of space to play outside. The kids from Bohumin might need a woonerf, but most of the houses have quite big gardens to compensate. On the pictures from Wolvega and Zwolle there is clearly little space besides the roads and houses left.

This has to do with the NL spacial problems, there is just not enoug place for things. Of course the solution can be have everything institutionalized - also the kids free time. But I guess that kills social life and creates atomized society. Notice that kids just love to play with the kids from the neigbours and socilize. Right here I must say I am the proponent of the kids freedom to have some place to do the things they want to do with their neigbour friends. The last 100 meters to your house doesnt seem like a place that couldnt live with the respect of the automobile drivers for this. Thus I understand why woonerf seems to me a good concept. (and also because people in my neigberhood demaand it
In '80-'90 we had 'woonerfs' now we have Vinex. A Vinex neighborhood is very child friendly, a lot of green, playgrounds, water, canals and bicyclepaths.

In this thread you will see sum Vinex neighborhoods.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...ighlight=vinex
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Old April 21st, 2012, 12:59 PM   #7025
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I spent part of my childhood (1990s) in a woonerf and spent entire days playing on the street. There were separate playgrounds in the area. We played there every now and then too, but the street was too good a ground for some of the games we played ("paalvoetbal", "bussietrap"). In terms of traffic, it all worked perfectly well.

If you look at modern residential areas, I would say that they can still be used for forms of playing on the street, though the stricter layout of streets in modern residential areas as compared to woonerf streets makes the streets less attractive. Be that as it may, now that I have become a person that drives around in residential areas (which I of course did not do when I played there), I would say that there is not much of a safety concern in playing on the streets in those low-traffic streets of residential areas, whether those were built in the modern age of before the woonerf age. In any street with a purely residential function, traffic is low, speeds are also low and there is more than enough room for a sensible form of interaction between playing kids and traffic.
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Old April 21st, 2012, 01:05 PM   #7026
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I don't like the lack of driveways in the Netherlands. If you look at some residential streets, they usually have one side with dedicated parking lots and the other side is usually one big line of cars, effectively making it a one-way street sometimes. It's a known fact many 1990's - 2000's neighborhoods had a far too low parking norm. Maybe they hope people buy less cars but the reality is virtually all public space is taken by parked cars, hardly the ideal of a residential neighborhood. I lived in three neighborhoods where this was the case, it was not uncommon for people to park their cars on public green spaces if they arrived home after 6 pm.
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Old April 21st, 2012, 03:51 PM   #7027
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True. But don't forget the years before that. In the 1970s woonerf where I spent part of my childhood, every house had its own carport or garage. Next to that, there were around 15 parking spots for every 45 houses. At the time of construction, that was enough to handle visitors while residents used their own garage or carport. But then people started buying second cars and many people started using their garages as a bikeshed / all-purpose room in which the car no longer fit. So these days, there are way too few parking spaces and people just park wherever they see fit. Which is actually prohibited in a woonerf, but it's the only way out.

Chris is right though about 1990s residential areas. But in my experience, they are better than the areas of the previous generation.
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Old April 21st, 2012, 05:05 PM   #7028
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Dru View Post
In '80-'90 we had 'woonerfs' now we have Vinex. A Vinex neighborhood is very child friendly, a lot of green, playgrounds, water, canals and bicyclepaths.

In this thread you will see sum Vinex neighborhoods.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...ighlight=vinex

Thx for the link. The thing I had in mind is that once the neigberhood was build as a woonerf it should be used as a woonerf. I replied with this because the 30 km/h board doesnt mean the same as the woonerf board. It seems to me shortsighted to try (it is impossible like this of course) changing the old woonerf desing into new design by only changing the traffic board.

And I see there also woonerf board .




These boards were introduced in the CZ in the 90s and people seemed to get used to them quite fast. I don't think that sign with 30 is better and certainly doesnt enforce the same things as the woonerf board. I am curious about the real explanation behind this. According to what I think and what I got from talking with authorities (wethouder, politie), the problem is that it is more costly for them to enforce the woonerf rules, thus they want this off their shoulder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
In any street with a purely residential function, traffic is low, speeds are also low and there is more than enough room for a sensible form of interaction between playing kids and traffic.
I think that as well, but obviously at least in our street there are problems with it. And the right of way is really a game changer.

Last edited by Surel; April 21st, 2012 at 05:26 PM.
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Old April 21st, 2012, 05:50 PM   #7029
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It appears that we will have to go to the polls again later this year.

I'm not sure what this brings for the roads in the Netherlands. Maybe the 130 km/h limit would be canceled, although that would be the least of my worries. Thankfully most major projects are already signed and will proceed no matter what.

Projects that may be delayed or postponed because they are somewhat controversial:

* A9 Badhoevedorp (unlikely though, but it got postponed last time the government collapsed). Record of decision will be signed next Monday.
* A13-A16 link in Rotterdam
* A15 Ressen - Zevenaar extension
* A24 Blankenburg motorway near Rotterdam
* A28 Hoevelaken interchange reconstruction

Except for A9, these projects will not commence before 2015 anyway.

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; April 21st, 2012 at 07:00 PM.
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 05:49 PM   #7030
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A9 Badhoevedorp

Although the prime minister tendered the resignation of the entire cabinet to the queen today, infrastructure minister Schultz signed the record of decision for the new A9 around the town of Badhoevedorp, close to Amsterdam.

The new motorway will be removed from cutting the town in two and be widened to 2x3 lanes. The Badhoevedorp motorway interchange (A4/A9), the first cloverleaf in the Netherlands, will be significantly modified to accomodate the new A9 motorway.

The procedural planning of A9 went through some delays as the Balkenende-IV cabinet collapsed in early 2010, after which the opposition declared the project controversial. The result was a delay of approximately 1.5 years. Luckily the current record of decision was signed in time, only the Council of State can stop it now if there is a legal basis to do so, which is rather unlikely. The new motorway is planned to open in 2017, and the entire project being completed in 2018, including the demolition of the existing A9.

A9 rendering:


Minister Schultz signed the record of decision at an elementary school in Badhoevedorp.

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; April 23rd, 2012 at 09:27 PM.
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Old April 24th, 2012, 05:37 PM   #7031
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A2 Maastricht double-deck tunnel

Some progress photos of the A2 Maastricht double-deck tunnel. It will open in 2016. It's technically probably the most challenging project currently going on in the Netherlands. The first concrete was recently poured.







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Old April 24th, 2012, 06:05 PM   #7032
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The A9 diversion is very interesting, as well as the "parallel interchange" that will be created.

Now that this government has come to an end, may I ask you dutchmen your opinions about Minister Schultz's work in these years? I mean about both road and rail main networks.
Any possibility to see this person again in the same role?
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Old April 24th, 2012, 06:26 PM   #7033
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In my opinion she was very good, but she can't take all credit since Eurlings (Minister before Schultz) set the basis for a lot of the projects. Very good duo
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Old April 24th, 2012, 07:08 PM   #7034
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A27 Utrecht widening

The 5th lane (3rd through lane) opened today along A27 on the east side of Utrecht. Traffic can now utilize 3 through lanes from Everdingen interchange to Utrecht-North interchange.

The lane on the left opened:
image hosted on flickr

A27 Amelisweerd-10 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr
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Old April 24th, 2012, 09:41 PM   #7035
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A12 Utrecht - Veenendaal widening

The constructor of the A12 Utrecht - Veenendaal widening is using an innovative technique to pour the so-called "double layer porous asphalt". The Netherlands, amongst a few other countries like Japan, uses porous asphalt for quite some time to improve drainage and reduce noise by 3 dB, compared to regular asphalt concrete. Double-layer porous asphalt can reduce noise by 6 dB, a significant achievement, comparable to a reduction of traffic volumes by 75%. Normally the top layer is poured in two sessions, now they poured it in one session for the first time:

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Old April 25th, 2012, 01:38 PM   #7036
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That's true - is so convenient and quite to drive in Netherlands But as I remember this porous layout create black ice in winter and increase the process of destruction of motorways. Does it?
What about the costs?
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Old April 25th, 2012, 03:04 PM   #7037
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A9 Badhoevedorp motorway interchange

A schematic for the reconstruction of the A4/A9 Badhoevedorp motorway interchange.
It is currently a cloverleaf with D/C lanes, but the new A9 outside Badhoevedorp requires a complete reconstruction of the interchange.

A4 and A9 will run next to eachother for a short distance.
This cross-section, if you can count it as one, will feature 21 lanes of traffic. Both A4 and A9 will feature 2x3 through lanes.
Most connectors will feature 2 lanes.

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Old April 25th, 2012, 08:58 PM   #7038
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That kind of reminds me of the I-88/355 interchange in Chicago's western suburbs:

Map:
http://maps.google.com/?ll=41.813675...55189&t=m&z=14

Aerial image:
http://maps.google.com/?ll=41.813675...55189&t=k&z=14

Mike
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Old April 25th, 2012, 11:13 PM   #7039
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What will be the connection to the Badhoevendorp then? Why don't they leave at least part of the connection and only downgrade the A9 in Badhoevendorp to an booulevard. Do you have the schema for the whole area?

edit: I see, the schema in the second link, thx. Still I think they could have make a connection there perhaps.
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Old April 25th, 2012, 11:39 PM   #7040
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The complete project is in post #7030

As far as I can see, the present-day cloferleaf does not provide a urban acces to Badhoevendorp; the exit lies a little bit to the West and will remain in the same place.


From the general scheme I see that the A5 is to be continued northwards, as the interchange was designed for. Will it connect to this area?
http://maps.google.com/?ll=52.393778...38581&t=k&z=15
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