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Old May 11th, 2012, 11:24 AM   #7121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
Just read a bit about agression in traffic, and imho it's caused by this:

The problem in Holland for car drivers is mainly the government policy.

Aggression and other bad behaviour is getting worse and worse, because the government seems to do anything to frustrate the flow of traffic ( and ridiculous speed limits, and ruining perfect good roads to ****, ( A208>N208 ( motorway ruined to normal road with a 50km/h slower speed limit ( 120>70 km/h), A325>Prins Mauritssingel ( interruption free road ruined to city road with traffic lights), N262 ( perfectly good 2x2 road ruined to 1x2) ), and increase costs of car travel. Along with the increasing traffic.

Simply more roads ( supply and demand evened out again), less ''duurzaam veilig'' and don't increase road tax, parking costs or fuel duty any more and people will automatically be more relaxed on the road imho. We are going the wrong way, the way this is going we'll have more and more aggression and disrespect of the rules on the road. Same with the police protests recently, the respect of the police is already at an all time low and aggression out of control, what do they do, annoy citizens by driving 30 km/h on main roads as a protest for more wage, idiots.

I'm willing to bet if the government doesn't take up a more car friendly policy soon, and generally a more liberal people friendly policy with less rules and regulations, there will be more and more violence and disrespect towards public servants. Enforcing rules like this will accomplish nothing, poke an animal too much and he will bite you.
I thought the current coalition (which is no more) is supposed to be more car-friendly...
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Old May 11th, 2012, 11:42 AM   #7122
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Whats up with the additional lane in the middle, is is ever going to be used?
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Old May 11th, 2012, 12:02 PM   #7123
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I think it was once intended as a reversible lane, but I don't know if it was ever used as such.

There is space in the median north of the tunnel for a reversible lane as well.
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Old May 12th, 2012, 03:21 AM   #7124
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I thought the current coalition (which is no more) is supposed to be more car-friendly...
What coalition :p. The one that collapsed :p ?
Plus, while the road building policy and 120>130 km/h thing is all good n nice, Ivo Opstelten still heavily increased fines, and Duurzaam Veilig is still applied by provinces and municipality's. Not to mention the rise in fuel duty's and the continuing parking terror with higher and higher parking costs.
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Old May 12th, 2012, 05:08 PM   #7125
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Just read a bit about agression in traffic, and imho it's caused by this:

The problem in Holland for car drivers is mainly the government policy.
No, the problem is the egoism in our society. Therefore some people rather like to fight than give each other some space - or even talk in a normal way. Somehow, some drivers see their car als their kingdom which may not be disturbed by others.
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Old May 12th, 2012, 05:30 PM   #7126
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No, the problem is the egoism in our society. Therefore some people rather like to fight than give each other some space - or even talk in a normal way. Somehow, some drivers see their car als their kingdom which may not be disturbed by others.
Bull, egoism would not be a problem is people weren't constantly poked/annoyed into it. Put a lot of people in too little space and there will always be conflicts. People are forced into egoism in the current situation. People need more space and freedom not to react like poked animals at each other.

It's very simple, too many people given too little space = conflicts, add ridiculous authority and make the problem even worse.

The problem in traffic is that there is no space, people even play copper by blocking others and such, moral high horse... There is nobody who cares about you but yourself on the road. The rest is just there to oppose you as a motorist ( especially duurzaam debiel, increasing costs, or any other government rubbish).

This is most obvious in more densely congested area's, it's far worse there than in calm and rural areas. The thought that strict enforcement will help is a dream imho. But we shall see in the numbers of aggression against the police .
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Old May 12th, 2012, 05:47 PM   #7127
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The problem is that many people believe like the were road gladiators. Never patient with slower drivers (who here was never a newbie???), always behaving with a "getta hell outa ma way" etc. Commercial drivers are particularly fond of this attitude of "I'm working and carrying a container, I'm entitled to drive and you aren't"
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Old May 12th, 2012, 06:06 PM   #7128
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The problem is that many people believe like the were road gladiators. Never patient with slower drivers (who here was never a newbie???), always behaving with a "getta hell outa ma way" etc. Commercial drivers are particularly fond of this attitude of "I'm working and carrying a container, I'm entitled to drive and you aren't"
Newbie doesn't give you an excuse to hinder traffic. I certainly didn't. Causing a ''get the hell outa my way'' situation in the first place is far more anti social than anything that happens after imho.

I'm guessing you are referring to the fact to people who flash you on the motorway because they want to overtake you for example ? This is entirely legal as per article 28 of the Vienna Convention, this has been asked Postbus 51 before and they replied (after half a year, in Dutch):
Quote:
Uw e-mail is door Postbus 51 ter beantwoording doorgestuurd naar het ministerie van IenM. Hierbij geef ik u, met excuus voor de late beantwoording, een reactie op uw e-mail.


In uw e-mail dat u ons heeft gestuurd merkt u op dat artikel 28 van het Reglement verkeersregels en verkeerstekens 1990 (RVV 1990) niet in overeenstemming is met artikel 28 van het Weens Verdrag inzake het wegverkeer. U raadt het ministerie van I&M aan de nationale regelgeving in overeenstemming te brengen. Alvorens mijn reactie te geven op uw advies, bied ik u namens het ministerie mijn welgemeende excuses aan voor de lange tijd dat u op een antwoord hebt moeten wachten.

Reactie

Artikel 28 van het RVV 1990 ziet toe op het gecombineerd gebruik van licht- en geluidsignalen. Dit is enkel toegestaan ter afwending van gevaar. Artikel 28 van het Weens verdrag inzake het wegverkeer heeft het steeds over het afzonderlijk gebruik van licht- en geluidsignalen ter voorkoming van een ongeluk en in bepaalde situaties om aan te geven dat zal worden ingehaald.

U bent van mening dat deze twee artikelen elkaar bijten en dat aanpassing van het RVV 1990 noodzakelijk is omdat Nederland geen voorbehoud heeft gemaakt bij artikel 28 van het verdrag. Nederland heeft inderdaad geen voorbehoud bij dit artikel gemaakt. Toch past artikel 28 van het RVV 1990 binnen de verdragsbepalingen met betrekking tot het gebruik van geluid- en lichtsignalen. Artikel 28 van het RVV 1990 ziet namelijk enkel toe op het gecombineerd gebruik van geluid- en lichtsignalen. Dit mag alleen ter afwending van gevaar. Het afzonderlijk gebruik van claxon en lichtsignalen wordt niet in die paragraaf noch elders in het RVV 1990 geregeld. Het afzonderlijk gebruik van claxon en lichtsignalen wordt direct geregeld via artikel 28 van het Weens verdrag inzake het wegverkeer. Dit blijkt wellicht niet meteen uit het opschrift van het artikel in de Engelse tekst doordat daar wordt gesproken over 'audible and luminous warnings', maar wel duidelijk uit de Nederlandse vertaling daarvan, waar gebruik wordt gemaakt van de woorden 'geluids- of lichtsignalen'. In de Engelse tekst van het artikel wordt overigens wel voldoende duidelijk dat hier het afzonderlijk gebruik van claxon of lichten wordt bedoeld.

In principe hebben bepalingen uit verdragen rechtstreekse werking in Nederland. Dit volgt uit artikel 93 van de Grondwet.*Dit betekent dat wanneer Nederland partij is bij een verdrag bepalingen meteen bindend kunnen zijn. Dit hangt af van het soort verdragsbepaling. Verbodsbepalingen zijn bijvoorbeeld meteen bindend. Het is dus in Nederland niet nodig om een verbodsbepaling als in artikel 28 van het verdrag eerst nog om te zetten in nationale regelgeving alvorens deze bindende werking verkrijgt. Uw advies om het RVV 1990 aan te passen en in overeenstemming te brengen met artikel 28 van het verdrag is gelet op het bovenstaande derhalve niet aan de orde. Het verdrag en het RVV 1990 vullen elkaar als het ware op het punt van gebruik van signalen aan.

Kort gezegd betekent het dat artikel 28 van het Verdrag in Nederland gewoon geldt en artikel 28 van het RVV 1990 ook; u mag dus:

- claxonneren om een ongeluk te voorkomen;

- claxonneren en lichten gebruiken ter afwending van dreigend gevaar op grond van artikel 28 RVV 1990;

- claxonneren buiten de bebouwde kom wanneer u wilt inhalen én het wenselijk is de andere bestuurder hiervoor te waarschuwen;

- lichten gebruiken buiten de bebouwde kom wanneer u wilt inhalen én het wenselijk is de andere bestuurder hiervoor te waarschuwen;

- lichten gebruiken binnen de bebouwde kom wanneer u wilt inhalen én het wenselijk is de andere bestuurder hiervoor te waarschuwen.


Tot slot, geeft artikel 3, eerste lid, onder a van het verdrag aan dat de verdragsluitende partijen passende maatregelen nemen opdat de op hun grondgebied geldende verkeersregels in hoofdzaak overeenkomen met de bepalingen van Hoofdstuk II van het verdrag. Hoofdstuk II gaat over verkeersregels. Dit houdt in dat niet alle nuances en details van de verdragsbepalingen inzake verkeersregels dienen worden overgenomen. Er kunnen dan ook kleine verschillen zitten in de nationale uitwerking van verkeersregels die in dit verdrag geregeld zijn.


Ik vertrouw erop u hiermee voldoende te hebben geïnformeerd.
See the bold bits. The people you (probably, I'm just assuming) and many others see as ''road gladiators'' are doing nothing against the law. Someone blocking the left lane on the motorway is at fault, not the guy behind him flashing his/her main beams for example. But hardly anyone knows this.

Last edited by snowdog; May 12th, 2012 at 07:50 PM.
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Old May 12th, 2012, 06:49 PM   #7129
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Bull, egoism would not be a problem is people weren't constantly poked/annoyed into it.
lol
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Old May 12th, 2012, 07:17 PM   #7130
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A50 Ewijk Waal River Bridge

One of the oldest shoulder running has recently been converted to a temporary permanent lane (at daytime). The A50 Waal Bridge is a 4-lane facility with northbound shoulder running during rush hour. It's now remarked into a permanent lane, though it's closed at night for the time being. All this is temporary, because a new 4-lane bridge is constructed next to it to double the motorway capacity to 8 lanes of traffic. 105.000 vehicles use this bridge every day.

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Old May 12th, 2012, 07:50 PM   #7131
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lol
Nothing funny about it, annoy any animal for too long and they will respond. Don't annoy it and it will be fine. People are egoistic because they are forced to be, otherwise others walk all over them and they lose time/freedom/money.

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Old May 12th, 2012, 08:07 PM   #7132
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See the bold bits. The people you (probably, I'm just assuming) and many others see as ''road gladiators'' are doing nothing against the law. Someone blocking the left lane on the motorway is at fault, not the guy behind him flashing his/her main beams for example. But hardly anyone knows this.
There are many different situations.

The only one I'm sometimes caught in and that deeply annoys me (though I'm very calm) is when, in a busy 2+2 highway, with lots of trucks going on the right lane below the speed limit, I'm passing many of them at the speed limit and there are still some "gladiators" feeling I should yield to them by slowing myself down considerably (say from 120km/h to 90km/h or less on A58 Breda-Tilburg) just to allow people driving at 140km/h go through. Some drivers will tailgate me (particularly those whose cars have Belgian plates) and sometimes they flash me. But I feel entitled not to yield because I'm passing one truck after another, like a gigantic road-train of many vehicles, and I'm driving at 118-120km/h on the GPS (122-124 on the speedometer).

The A58 is quite emblematic: it has plenty of truck traffic, and often trucks get lined up on the right at 80-90km/h traffic, and there is plenty of traffic on the left lane as well.

This means if someone yield to cars, it is likely to staying locked between two trucks for a long time, until getting a new opportunity for overtaking.
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Old May 12th, 2012, 08:10 PM   #7133
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One of the oldest shoulder running has recently been converted to a temporary permanent lane (at daytime). The A50 Waal Bridge is a 4-lane facility with northbound shoulder running during rush hour. It's now remarked into a permanent lane, though it's closed at night for the time being. All this is temporary, because a new 4-lane bridge is constructed next to it to double the motorway capacity to 8 lanes of traffic. 105.000 vehicles use this bridge every day.
How many of such bridges (2+2+4) will Netherlands ultimately have? Because I don't think for obvious reasons they can remove the central pylon there
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Old May 12th, 2012, 08:11 PM   #7134
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There are many different situations.

The only one I'm sometimes caught in and that deeply annoys me (though I'm very calm) is when, in a busy 2+2 highway, with lots of trucks going on the right lane below the speed limit, I'm passing many of them at the speed limit and there is still some "gladiators" feeling I should yield to them by slowing myself down considerably (say from 120km/h to 90km/h or less on A58 Breda-Tilburg) just to allow people driving at 140km/h go through. The A58 is quite emblematic: it has plenty of truck traffic, and often trucks get lined up on the right at 80-90km/h traffic, and there is plenty of traffic on the left lane as well.

This means if someone yield to cars, it is likely to staying locked between two trucks for a long time, until getting a new opportunity for overtaking.
That is a different situation though I guess, but surely you see this whole problem is caused by mispolicy in the first place ? A 2x3 lane motorway would solve this ?
Not saying it is correct, but what I'd do: Personally I'd choose to either drive economically behind a truck on cruise control in his slipstream, or drive 140 km/h, anything in between has no point, left lane travels 140 km/h so use that if in a hurry...

Ideally, there's an extra lane in between, for the slower 120 km/h drivers... This problem you're describing is caused by the lack of capacity for all to travel at the speed they want to.

If I was in the same situation as yours I'd just speed up, it's imho the courteous thing to do, there are no disadvantages (if you've got an eye for radar and laser guns and using an app like flitsmeister or flitsnav), if I was driving economically I wouldn't be in the left lane at 120 km/h anyhow. But then again I just have 2 driving modes, A to B asap ( which means basically at the speed the left lane is travelling at in heavy traffic, or speed limit +40 km/h (muldergrens) at night) or economical wallet friendly ( hang in slipstream of a truck on CC, or at night on an empty road drive 100 km/h on CC)

Last edited by snowdog; May 12th, 2012 at 08:17 PM.
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Old May 12th, 2012, 08:21 PM   #7135
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I agree a 2x4 Dordrecht-Breda-Eindhoven is the solution, but while that doesn't happen, I drive at 120km/h. It's just my policy: I follow all traffic rules except in cases of imminent danger and then I sleep easy at night not having to second guess whether I'll get a fine or not in the mail.
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Old May 12th, 2012, 08:24 PM   #7136
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Newbie doesn't give you an excuse to hinder traffic. I certainly didn't.
I guarantee you you've annoyed people.

Besides, not everyone is always cruising in their hood. Lots of people regularly drive to places where they haven't been before so they sometimes need an extra second to figure out where they need to go. There's no reason to be honking at someone like that, but many people do. Because nobody has any patience.
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Old May 12th, 2012, 08:24 PM   #7137
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I agree a 2x4 Dordrecht-Breda-Eindhoven is the solution, but while that doesn't happen, I drive at 120km/h. It's just my policy: I follow all traffic rules except in cases of imminent danger and then I sleep easy at night not having to second guess whether I'll get a fine or not in the mail.
Therefore 120km/h is a failing speed limit and contributing to road agression, along with insufficient capacity.
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Old May 12th, 2012, 08:27 PM   #7138
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The problem is that many people believe like the were road gladiators. Never patient with slower drivers (who here was never a newbie???), always behaving with a "getta hell outa ma way" etc. Commercial drivers are particularly fond of this attitude of "I'm working and carrying a container, I'm entitled to drive and you aren't"
You got it right. And if someone cannot handle little space, one should move out to an area or country with more space. It is too easy to blame police, poltics or anyone else for what you are doing. The only problem is the impatient person itself who wants space for itself, not willing to share with anyone else, and it cannod be blamed on anyone else. I daily use public transportation in Rotterdam and trams can sometimes be awfully full, expecially in the afternoons. Nevertheless, I have never thought of starting a fight with someone else because he or she was standing in the way (asking nicely to step aside always helps). Just a matter of personality, impatience and, most important, egoism and bad manners.
Maybe it is even a drivers' problem, since I have encountered only once a fight in public transportation. But that was in an quite empty tram when 2 peopel met each other who obviously knew each other but didn't like eachtother. It had nothing to do with lack of space.

Thankfully, I have also only once seen a fight between two drivers on the road (not counting the numberless middle fingers, honks, blocking cars etc.). It must have been almost 20 years ago on a quiet junction.
Unfortunately agression has increased in our society. And not only on roads. It seems to be quite normal these days in the Netherlands to threaten or fight people if someone does not immediately get what he or she wants (think about shop personnel, restaurants, hospitals, etc)


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Newbie doesn't give you an excuse to hinder traffic. I certainly didn't.
I am glad to see we have a perfect driver here.
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Old May 12th, 2012, 08:27 PM   #7139
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Nothing funny about it, annoy any animal for too long and they will respond. Don't annoy it and it will be fine. People are egoistic because they are forced to be, otherwise others walk all over them and they lose time/freedom/money.
Hmm, if you could just see that you produced contradiction. You say: "people are forced to be egoistic, because otherwise others walk all over them". So who walked over the people that walk over others? How were they forced? No, people are egoistic because there exists opportunity for egoistic behaviour to be "more succesfull". Its just a dynamic equilibrium of two strategies. Cooperation versus stealing, agriculture versus looting. Thats how nature works. If all the people were born without egoistic needs there would be no egoistic behaviour and the society would only cooperate. However, perhaps we wouldnt evolve much and still not get out of trees yet in that case.
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Old May 12th, 2012, 08:48 PM   #7140
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I guarantee you you've annoyed people.
Yeah, people on a moral high horse, ''schoolmeestertjes'', wannabe coppers.

I try my best not to annoy my fellow motorists who tries to go from A to B asap. I'm not the type who flashes people, but I am the type who dislikes people who moan about others doing it, those to blind to see they are actually contributing to aggression in traffic.
Quote:
Hmm, if you could just see that you produced contradiction. You say: "people are forced to be egoistic, because otherwise others walk all over them". So who walked over the people that walk over others? How were they forced? No, people are egoistic because there exists opportunity for egoistic behaviour to be "more succesfull". Its just a dynamic equilibrium of two strategies. Cooperation versus stealing, agriculture versus looting. Thats how nature works. If all the people were born without egoistic needs there would be no egoistic behaviour and the society would only cooperate. However, perhaps we wouldnt evolve much and still not get out of trees yet in that case.
I don't know who walked over the government, all I know is they seem to do their best to hamper traffic flow and make driving as expensive as possible, and do nothing against the demand of the people: more road space.

Though you are right, if there was more capacity like motorists want, egoistic behaviour would not be more ''more successful''.

Last edited by snowdog; May 12th, 2012 at 08:56 PM.
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