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Old May 23rd, 2012, 10:23 AM   #7221
Road_UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParadiseLost View Post
1. I don't think we really have excessive downgrading on a significant scale.
2. And to the extend that we do other European countries do as well, on a lesser scale but still.

I don't think it's a huge issue though.

My contention is more with people spouting stupid political generalities like: "And everyone knows what happens when Governments start telling people how to drive: you get drivers driving extremely badly, causing even more accidents!".

Which first of all I don't think accurately describes the relation of government and driving in the countries we are talking about. But beyond that the second part of the statement is just plain wrong, stupid and cheap.
I have been going through some of your posts, to get a basic idea of who you are, and you are clearly a I-know-it-all, cussing down any post you don´t like or agree with.

Downgrading happens in any country. In some countries it has a positive impact in road behavior and general road safety. France is a fine example on that. Previously one of the most dangerous countries to drive in, it is now one of the safest. Italy has now decided that they want to reduce fatal accidents on their roads, and has also taken measures to combat dangerous driving.

It is a bit different in the Netherlands. You said yourself that traffic accidents are very low in the Netherlands. So why the downgrading. And it is a big issue in Holland, there are pictures on this thread to prove it. That added with new maximum speeds and unnecessary lane controls and harsh speed checks, makes Holland a bore to drive in. You are not doing the driving anymore, the government does the driving for you. You merely operate a vehicle. And with this boredom comes accidents.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 10:48 AM   #7222
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 11:13 AM   #7223
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Joure Motorway Interchange

1940:


1973:


2015:
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 01:33 PM   #7224
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^
While probably the best one design wise, why don't they build so many turmpet interchanges any more ?

Take up less space and cost less, as there's just 1 viaduct....

Use the rest of the money for more important road improvements elsewhere. Since there is nothing wrong ( imho) with a trumpet ( traffic weaving wise) aside from the low speed/sharp corner, but that's mainly a mentality problem, if people would floor their throttle after the corner, they're up to speed again by the time they merge...
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 02:19 PM   #7225
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I'm glad that they are going to reconstruct the Joure Motorway Interchange, It's always a pain in the ass to drive on that interchange.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 02:27 PM   #7226
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Will they displace the exit to Joure? With this new design it's difficult to put an exit reachable from all three sides...
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 02:32 PM   #7227
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Yes, the new motorway interchange will be constructed approximately 1.5 - 2.0 kilometers south of the existing roundabout along A6. A separate exit will be constructed for traffic to and from the town of Joure.

This interchange is a pain in the ass. Most delay is actually on the least-trafficked motorway section, A7 from Sneek, because traffic from Sneek cannot enter the roundabout because of fast-flowing traffic from Heerenveen towards Emmeloord. Delays can easily be 20 minutes (1 - 2 km) or more.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 04:33 PM   #7228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
^
While probably the best one design wise, why don't they build so many turmpet interchanges any more ?

Take up less space and cost less, as there's just 1 viaduct....
Trumpet interchanges don't really take up less space though? Just look at the reduced footprint at interchanges Batadorp and De Hogt along the A2...
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 08:07 PM   #7229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
2015:
I see that the A7 will run as a "TOTSO" due to the large capacity of vehicles from Heerenveen to Lelystad?
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 08:36 PM   #7230
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There's a lot of traffic from Northern NL towards Amsterdam-Utrecht, that's the main reason
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 10:11 PM   #7231
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Rotterdam, A20, notice how short people drive on each other.

Just before the worst rush hour traffic (speed on this section, I only just drove down it 5 mins before, ~70km/h, random slowdowns (braking) to 50km/h ):




Just after rush hour ( speed 75 ish eastbound, 90 ish westbound), still people driving close to each other often:
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Old May 24th, 2012, 12:28 AM   #7232
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Prins Clausplein, Den Haag by Aerial Pictures |
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Old May 24th, 2012, 10:19 PM   #7233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Yeah, only about 100.000 kilometers of road got their speed limits reduced by 20 km/h!
You got some nice sauce for that?

According to wiki we only have 135k of public roads so that doesn't sound plausible at all to me.

But maybe it's true, i'd like to see it.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 10:27 PM   #7234
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Apart from a small core network, all 50 and 80 km/h roads in the Netherlands (which was probably around 120.000 kilometers) were downgraded to 30 and 60 km/h in the past 10 - 15 years.

What remains are the provincial roads, which are about 7.500 kilometers and are also partially 60 km/h (especially >400 numbers) and the motorways, which are 2.500 kilometers. The far majority of the Dutch road network consist of municipal roads, and virtually all of them were downgraded.

No country has downgraded such a large proportion of its road network.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 10:28 PM   #7235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
I have been going through some of your posts, to get a basic idea of who you are, and you are clearly a I-know-it-all, cussing down any post you don´t like or agree with.

Downgrading happens in any country. In some countries it has a positive impact in road behavior and general road safety. France is a fine example on that. Previously one of the most dangerous countries to drive in, it is now one of the safest. Italy has now decided that they want to reduce fatal accidents on their roads, and has also taken measures to combat dangerous driving.

It is a bit different in the Netherlands. You said yourself that traffic accidents are very low in the Netherlands. So why the downgrading. And it is a big issue in Holland, there are pictures on this thread to prove it. That added with new maximum speeds and unnecessary lane controls and harsh speed checks, makes Holland a bore to drive in. You are not doing the driving anymore, the government does the driving for you. You merely operate a vehicle. And with this boredom comes accidents.
You've basically completely abandoned your entire point that "everyone knows what happens when Governments start telling people how to drive: you get drivers driving extremely badly, causing even more accidents!" which was the only part I had (big) issue with.

There's nothing in this new post of yours that I disagree with or ever contended (although there is a subjective component I might not necessarily subscribe to) so I'm unsure why you're so upset.

It's true that I was a bit harsh in my wording and for that I apologize, however when people make clearly untrue blanket tabloid type statements it kind of annoys me so I guess that is what set me off.

edit: I do strongly disagree with your last point, it's just conjecture without any real basis. It might be true, but you've provided no evidence for it and the fact that road accidents have fallen pretty dramatically the last decade as well here can only be interpreted as a sign that the opposite might be true. And definitively not as evidence that this idea that state induced boredom makes roads significantly more dangerous.

Don't misunderstand me I'm not some sort of huge fan of downgrading, I like driving fast as well. But blanket statements like this add nothing to the discussion IMO.

Last edited by ParadiseLost; May 24th, 2012 at 10:38 PM.
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Old May 25th, 2012, 01:12 AM   #7236
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Maybe its because I drive a car which is more comfortable going 90 than 130 but I've never particularly cared for those who claim government is trampling our freedoms, at least on the motorway side of things.
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Old May 25th, 2012, 04:45 AM   #7237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParadiseLost View Post

edit: I do strongly disagree with your last point, it's just conjecture without any real basis. It might be true, but you've provided no evidence for it and the fact that road accidents have fallen pretty dramatically the last decade as well here can only be interpreted as a sign that the opposite might be true. And definitively not as evidence that this idea that state induced boredom makes roads significantly more dangerous.
Safer cars. Less alcohol use when driving.

Main reaons imho.

All those speedbumps, anti parking poles, speed camera's, and narrowing down roads have little to do with this.

With safer cars being the main reason. This is the only explanation that would apply to whole Europe...

For example Nordrein Westfahlen, a state in Germany comparable to Holland density and traffic wise. Higher speed limits, FAR LESS ruined roads ( I have not come across such rediculous speedbump ridden roads there like here ) yet less deaths...
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Old May 25th, 2012, 09:43 AM   #7238
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A6/A7 Joure Motorway Interchange

The designs of the new Joure Motorway interchange.





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Old May 25th, 2012, 11:40 AM   #7239
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All 65 drawbridges in Amsterdam:

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Old May 25th, 2012, 03:27 PM   #7240
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The government published the new budget for 2012-2013

Mobility related stuff;

* untaxed mileage compensation abolished. (saves € 1.3 billion)(used to be € 0.19 per kilometer untaxed).
* red diesel canceled (which is low-tax diesel for agricultural use only)
* keep euro vignette (foreign truck tax)
* budget cuts infrastructure € 200 million
* investment postponed from 2013 to 2014 and 2015 worth € 230 million
* VAT increased from 19 to 21%.

Most notable is the budget cut of € 200 million, which will be cut from the infrastructure fund, but not from rail or delta works, so roads and regular waterworks.
Another € 230 million to be invested in 2013 will be postponed to 2014/2015 to reduce the deficit in 2013.

Also notable; no fuel tax raise (other than inflation correction probably).
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