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Old May 28th, 2012, 10:49 PM   #7281
ChrisZwolle
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The dual carriageway left after the A61 was realigned there was about 1 kilometer, about two-thirds of that in Germany. Apparently they also changed the "Keulseplein" roundabout to just one lane, which is annoying, giving its large diameter and the fact you could pass slow vehicles there before.

However, general opinion amongst policymakers is that it cannot look too "traffic" if there is no urgent need for it. That's why you see so many large intersections being downgraded as well. I know of several intersections where left/right turn lanes were eliminated because it looked too much like traffic. Needless to say, traffic flow also deteriorated.
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Old May 29th, 2012, 12:16 AM   #7282
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Downgrading a motorway to 1+1? Are you crazy? Spend money to make something worse?
Well, I write from a country where there are motorways planned for 40 years and never opened mountain tunnels digged 20 years ago but I never heard anything like that.
Do they think to stop people using cars in that way? Do they think that driving slowly in a jam pollutes less than driving at normal highway speed?
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old May 29th, 2012, 12:19 AM   #7283
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Downgrading is not only made in the Netherlands: This street in a town just North of Madrid previously was part of A-1.
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Old May 29th, 2012, 12:21 AM   #7284
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Quote:
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Downgrading a motorway to 1+1? Are you crazy? Spend money to make something worse?
Well, I write from a country where there are motorways planned for 40 years and never opened mountain tunnels digged 20 years ago but I never heard anything like that.
Do they think to stop people using cars in that way? Do they think that driving slowly in a jam pollutes less than driving at normal highway speed?
Nobody said anything about downgrading motorways. A new motorway was built in the area, so a dual carriageway got downgraded, because of the traffic being diverted onto the new motorway.
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Old May 29th, 2012, 01:40 AM   #7285
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Is maintaining a DC really more expensive than what they did to that road ?

And there is no harm in a 2x2 DC even for very little traffic, it makes a nicer driving experience. I am of the opinion Provincial roads should be layed 2x2 lanes standard, to provide a decent alternative to the highways.
I must agree that the alternative to motorways in The Netherlands, provincial roads, are not really made to cope with the traffic and are ofthen to much downgraded with very narrow lanes and such.

But what should I say, writing from a country where those big USA like main roads are a complete disaster every rush hour again dispite being much wider constructed than in The Netherlands
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Old May 29th, 2012, 11:03 AM   #7286
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Dutch traffic jam turns 57 years

Today it's exactly 57 years ago the first motorway traffic jam in Dutch history was recorded. It happened on the southbound A2 at the Oudenrijn interchange near the city of Utrecht, as people went on the two-day pentecost holiday. The traffic jam drew tons of spectators. While urban congestion was not uncommon at that time, mass mobilization was happening, requiring a large-scale expansion of the Dutch motorway network, which is one of the oldest in the world.

Traffic congestion skyrocketed during the 1980's and the 1990's in particular, when large-scale construction ceased in the late 1970's, rendering much of the network obsolete by the 1990's. A current construction offensive has reduced traffic congestion by 30% for two years in a row now.

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Old May 29th, 2012, 11:17 AM   #7287
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That picture is of the A44 at Warmond junction, in the direction of Sassenheim.
The subscript of the picture you quoted is clearly incorrect. I remember the same mistake on the rijkswaterstaat beeldbank...

Location now: https://maps.google.nl/maps?hl=nl&ll...2,58.14,,0,2.3
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Old May 29th, 2012, 11:19 AM   #7288
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
I am more thinking in the lines of: With all the mass traffic and freight being diverted, there is not much point having a dual carriageway there, when hardly anyone is going to use it, and it will only cost extra in maintenance.
Cost of a sum of decades of less maintenance (difference is almost negligible) will never cover even a small bit of cost of new construction.
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Old May 29th, 2012, 01:35 PM   #7289
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A10 Amsterdam

The A10 southern part of the Amsterdam Beltway under construction in 1977, near the Amsterdam-Zuid Railway Station. They are planning to bring this motorway underground by 2019-2022.




Looking east across the A10-south towards the Amstel motorway interchange (not visible). This part of the A10 has an approximately 160-meter wide right-of-way with rail infrastructure in the median. The parking on the left is for the RAI exhibition and convention center.



Both photos: Beeldbank RWS
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Old May 29th, 2012, 01:42 PM   #7290
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Why underground? Congestion is normally very little on that stretch, and with railway lines in the middle (both national and local Amsterdam subway lines) it seems to be doing its job...
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Old May 29th, 2012, 01:45 PM   #7291
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They want to expand the highway capacity to 12 lanes (10 through lanes) to handle the expected 250.000 vehicles per day, and improve the "livability" of the Zuidas area by turning it into a giant rail yard. It's the most expensive project in the Netherlands on a kilometer basis (almost € 230 million/km).

Knooppunt Ypenburg in 1976. Note the old E-numbers.


Photo: Beeldbank RWS
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Old May 29th, 2012, 01:51 PM   #7292
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So basically they are predicting congestion when it stays in its current form. How long will the tunnel be? And if an accident were to happen in that tunnel, or they would have to close it for a number of reasons, wouldn´t that clog the entire Amsterdam Orbital up? Normally they don´t allow congestions in tunnels, and here in Austria, they apply "blockabfertigung" which means they shut the tunnels at times, to avoid congestion inside it. They do the same at the Dartford Crossing in England, and congestion on that stretch is a way of life these days.
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Old May 29th, 2012, 01:56 PM   #7293
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There is "blockabfertigung" at the A2 Leidsche Rijntunnel in Utrecht already.

The Zuidas Tunnel will feature 2+4+4+2 lanes, in 4 tubes. The original plan called for 4x3 lanes with the railway infrastructure underground as well, but the real estate market is not lucrative enough to pay for such a project (over € 3 billion). So they are only bringing the motorway underground, leaving space for the railway station to expand.

It's not a very useful project though. There are no people living at the Zuidas office park and most offices there benefit from their location directly visible to 300.000 people every day. The lack of "livability" at the Zuidas is somewhat exaggerated. It won't be much more livable if it turns into a giant, Sloterdijk-like, railway yard office park.



Another historic photo; the construction of the A12 Galecopper Bridge across the Amsterdam-Rijn Canal in 1976.

Photo: Beeldbank RWS
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Old May 29th, 2012, 03:40 PM   #7294
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They do the same at the Dartford Crossing in England, and congestion on that stretch is a way of life these days.
Which is due, not entirely, but mostly, to the toll booths. In some ways they built the bridge on the wrong side - at least the other way around would have meant that the queues for the toll booths are on the bridge, not the tunnel.

Better yet would have been sticking to the promise that once the bridge is paid for, the tolls go. They are ironically keeping them as a congestion charge and upping the price to try and dissuade traffic. I don't begrudge the Dartford, Gravesham and Thurrock areas their money for better transport links, but given the tolls cause most of the congestion in the first place, given that demand on them is elastic so congestion isn't going to be dissuaded by tolls/higher tolls - other than borderline cases where you could go either way around and any toll at Dartford means you go via the more congested M4-M40 section

Anyway, back to the Netherlands - is that Galecopper Bridge a bridge that makes the road 12 lanes (4 lots of 3-with-shoulder)? Wow!
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Old May 29th, 2012, 03:45 PM   #7295
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Why underground? Congestion is normally very little on that stretch, and with railway lines in the middle (both national and local Amsterdam subway lines) it seems to be doing its job...
Because politicians are retarded and think we have money to throw away.
Under the false impression we need better ''livability'' in that area and that it will be improved by moving the highway underground. Complete madness if you ask.
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Old May 29th, 2012, 04:18 PM   #7296
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If both road and rail infrastructure were to move underground there's a lot more space left to develop the area. Or at least that was the thinking before they discovered there's no money to be made.

As much as you like to rail against the government and their silly schemes the sad thing is that the original plan might have worked really well if the real estate market hadn't collapsed. Now we're left with only half of it (the road project) and it looks like it's both overengineered (why go underground now?) and underdesigned (only one continuous parallel lane).
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Old May 29th, 2012, 05:41 PM   #7297
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N33 Assen - Zuidbroek widening 2x2

They had jumped the gun with the N33 record of decision / EIS being signed two weeks ago.

But... it has been signed May 24th!
Public consultation and appeals can be brought up from 31 May to 14 July. It is hoped the record of decision will become irrevocable late 2012, after which full-scale contruction can commence. The plan is to open the widened N33 at March 31st, 2015.

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Minister Schultz will sign the record of decision tomorrow to duplicate the existing two-lane expressway N33 to four lanes between Assen and Zuidbroek. (35 kilometers). This will link the A28 and A7 motorways by a four-lane expressway. Space has been reserved for a second carriageway. The most interesting works are the A28 interchange near Assen, a slight realignment near Veendam and a new cloverturbine interchange with A7 near Zuidbroek. The rest is a simple duplication of the existing roadway.

1. Assen-Zuid interchange. A long flyover will connect N33 to A28-south. (current configuration)


2. Zuidbroek interchange. A diamond will be replaced by a cloverturbine. (current configuration)
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Old May 29th, 2012, 06:41 PM   #7298
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Originally Posted by Koesj View Post
If both road and rail infrastructure were to move underground there's a lot more space left to develop the area. Or at least that was the thinking before they discovered there's no money to be made.

As much as you like to rail against the government and their silly schemes the sad thing is that the original plan might have worked really well if the real estate market hadn't collapsed. Now we're left with only half of it (the road project) and it looks like it's both overengineered (why go underground now?) and underdesigned (only one continuous parallel lane).
For that price you could build far more useful roads elsewhere though.
And you always have to expect the worst in terms of the real estate prices and economy in general when making plans like this imho.

for 1.4 billion euro's they build 150 km's of regular highway in a normal country.

http://nos.nl/artikel/339583-cpb-tun...nrendabel.html
Tunneling is not proftable, so scrap it immediately, especially in times where we have a public deficit.
Only build projects which are guaranteed profitable, in the worst possible conditions.


I don't really understand the A2 tunnel in Utrecht either, the highway never seperated Leidse Rijn from the rest, the Amsterdam-Rijnkanaal does!
Not to mention the 700 ( iirc) million euros A4 link, which can be built for 200m but apparantly, it's so important to save some cow land from traffic noise etc that we have to spend money we don't have on rubbish like that.
They could build THREE or FOUR 2x2 dual carriegeway roads between Delft and Rotterdam for the price of that expensive A4.

Last edited by snowdog; May 29th, 2012 at 07:09 PM.
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Old May 29th, 2012, 06:55 PM   #7299
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The Zuid-Willemsvaart shipping canal is being rerouted near the city of 's-Hertogenbosch. The recently reconstructed A59 was already prepared for that with a wide viaduct where the canal can run underneath.



A similar "planning ahead" viaduct can be found in both the N50 and Hanze Railway Line near Kampen, where a bypass of the IJssel River is planned in the future (nobody knows when). The N50 viaduct is even prepared for a full 2x2 motorway.

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; May 29th, 2012 at 07:05 PM.
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Old May 30th, 2012, 12:34 AM   #7300
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Again, The Netherlands seem to lead the way, in spite of the insane downgrading of some roads. At least some things are planned way ahead, in comparison with Norway, where it seems like a sport to rebuild roads as many times as possible. Well, enough rant.

Btw, here's E 10 today:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._the_route.jpg
http://goo.gl/maps/4LAo

It ends in a parking lot after this short tunnel. A bit less fashionable than Paris, where it ended/started in 1976.
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