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Old June 6th, 2012, 08:35 PM   #7361
g.spinoza
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I guess they closed it for the time being?
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Old June 6th, 2012, 10:15 PM   #7362
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Sure.
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Old June 6th, 2012, 10:20 PM   #7363
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Same happened a few year ago in the UK on the M25 at Enfield, when a German lorry hit the pillar of a overhead bridge, with full speed. The driver was killed instantly, and to make matters worse, another lorry went straight into the back of the German one.

They have kept the German lorry underneath that bridge for days, as they were afraid that by removing the lorry, the whole bridge would come down.
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Old June 6th, 2012, 10:56 PM   #7364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I guess they closed it for the time being?
So far until 6 am, but Rijkswaterstaat said it could take longer and cause (more) trouble during the morning rush hour
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Old June 7th, 2012, 11:42 AM   #7365
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Trucks... There must be a better way to transport goods...
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Old June 7th, 2012, 12:01 PM   #7366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The overpass needs reinforcement, but it is unknown whether it has to be torn down.
Not even a "strike"!

Those kinds of accidents always remind me of the Eschede disaster...
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Old June 7th, 2012, 12:28 PM   #7367
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Quote:
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Trucks... There must be a better way to transport goods...
How?
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Old June 7th, 2012, 03:06 PM   #7368
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How?
A few years ago I met with someone from the provincial government of Zeeland. He mentioned several companies in the transport industry were developing a conveyor belt system for shipping containers. The idea there was that trucks would soon become too expensive (high oil price back then) and railways were too extensive and complicated to build (as well as noisy in use).
So if you could build a relatively simple and cheap conveyor belt system from Rotterdam to Germany (with distribution centers at each end), you would save a lot of money.

Then the crisis hit, oil prices came down and so did international flows of goods and the ideas were shelved as far as I know.

But every time I'm driving on a motorway where at least 1 lane is completely occupied with lorries that simply drive in a straight line from Rotterdam/Vlissingen/Amsterdam to Germany, I can't help but remember the conveyor belt system and imagine how much it would improve the driving experience in Holland.
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Old June 7th, 2012, 03:27 PM   #7369
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Any given closed system, in the history of transports, that was proposed as an alternative to motorways and "complicated" railways failed due to the low flexibility and the fact that, in reality, anything that can move high volumes of heavy containers is never so much simpler than the rail, which in turn has the advantage of being a consolidated system.
And you'll always need a transfer point to rail or truck once in Germany, which is a time-losing step that freight traffic would not accept.

Since The Netherlands are lucky enough to have all their major freight centers concentrated (only a few, but very huge, harbours) and that most of traffic is concentrated too on a few directions, dedicated freight railways would have a pretty smooth operation and not be too much complicated.
Some like the Betuwelijn, but not built so complicated as it turned to be. Freight trains don't need HSL-lookalikes...


Apart from those main routes, I don't know why the Netherlands have such a huge road traffic, so I can't give any other advice.
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Old June 7th, 2012, 03:38 PM   #7370
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Roads, railways, waterways and now conveyor belts. Transport redundancy at its highest.

I think we should just use better the networks we have, not build another one.
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Old June 7th, 2012, 03:39 PM   #7371
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My biggest problem is that I was run off the motorway by trucks twice in my life, narrowly escaping death. Once the truckdriver essentially sped off and the other time he denied all allegations, making some preposterous claim that I was overtaking him on the right on the emergency lane. With a lack of witnesses, there was nothing I could do.

I don't blame the truckdrivers much anymore these days. If they admit to having caused an accident, I'm sure they'd lose their job and their livelihood or be made to pay for it or something.

Having said that, as far as I'm concerned the entire industry is rotten to the core. When my grandfather was a truckdriver, it was an honorable and respected position. Something that only very skilled people were allowed to do. These days any jackass with a driver's license acquired in countries without proper road tests can drive a truck. And with murdering competition and poor working conditions, it's a recipe for disaster.
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Old June 7th, 2012, 03:46 PM   #7372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I think we should just use better the networks we have
Well all I know is: that's not happening. And I'm getting to be sick of living in a place where many motorways look like this for a lot of the time:



Obviously that's a photo of a traffic jam, but even when traffic is moving the right lane is generally full of trucks. And the odd caravan.
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Old June 7th, 2012, 03:50 PM   #7373
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Motorways are not built to please car drivers only.
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Old June 7th, 2012, 05:33 PM   #7374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor
I'm not calling for a giant investment in a conveyor belt system. I'm calling for research into alternatives to lessen the truck burden on our road system. I think we're in dire need for alternatives. There are too many trucks.
Trucks bring goods from A to B though.
Alternatives have to go from A to C to D to B...

Anything that requires different infra than roads will have the same problem as trains or a giant conveyor belt or waterways.
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Old June 8th, 2012, 12:08 PM   #7375
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Trucks bring goods from A to B though.
Alternatives have to go from A to C to D to B...
True, which is why the conveyor belt idea was only being investigated when oil prices were rising sharply.

There could be a point in the future where oil prices are so high we need to reconsider how we transport goods. Then when have a choice between two options:

A) Relocate production centers to where the consumers are so that you don't have to transport anything over long distances. Some companies are doing this but it's a hassle and running production centers in Western nations is expensive. This is only a viable option if oil prices really skyrocket.
B) Find a way to transport goods that uses considerably less oil. That's when a conveyor belt system (or other alternatives) could become interesting.

Notice I'm using words like "could become", none of this is for the running decade of course. I realize that.
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Old June 8th, 2012, 12:57 PM   #7376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
A truck damaged an overpass along A50 near the city of Oss today. Accidents like these with structural damage to structures is rather uncommon in the Netherlands. The overpass needs reinforcement, but it is unknown whether it has to be torn down.

New pillar will have to be built, nothing more. Old pillar was apparently just a seat for upper plate and not rigidly connected to it.
However no traffic is to be allowed on overpass until completed.
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Old June 8th, 2012, 12:58 PM   #7377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
True, which is why the conveyor belt idea was only being investigated when oil prices were rising sharply.

There could be a point in the future where oil prices are so high we need to reconsider how we transport goods. Then when have a choice between two options:

A) Relocate production centers to where the consumers are so that you don't have to transport anything over long distances. Some companies are doing this but it's a hassle and running production centers in Western nations is expensive. This is only a viable option if oil prices really skyrocket.
B) Find a way to transport goods that uses considerably less oil. That's when a conveyor belt system (or other alternatives) could become interesting.

Notice I'm using words like "could become", none of this is for the running decade of course. I realize that.
That might be true for bulk cargo or raw materials or very low voulme density value good such as ore, steel, trash, grains/raw meat/animals, construction materials....

The cost of fuel/energy on transportation of things like processed food, electronics, house appliances, clothes is rather insignificant (other costs such as the time-money cost of transit, transshipment, loading/unloading, manpower are higher than fuel by large margins).

If the fuel cost to transport notebooks from Rotterdam coming from Shang'ai to Berlin increased 10x, it would not significantly make notebooks that much expensive.
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Old June 8th, 2012, 04:18 PM   #7378
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[clears throat nervously]

I apologize for losing my temper, particularly about something off-topic, and possibly for one or two of the things I said.

self-

[hangs head in shame and slips away quietly]
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Old June 8th, 2012, 04:29 PM   #7379
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Me too.

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Old June 9th, 2012, 10:25 AM   #7380
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In the UK we have lots of lorry traffic on many motorways, and there are only two or three experimental sections of road with lorry overtaking bans. On roads such as the M25 I have seen lorries in lanes 1, 2, 3 and 4 overtaking each other at perhaps 0.25km/h difference in speed, with lane 5 solid with other traffic. We desperately need more lorry overtaking bans in the UK, much like Germany operates. I once measured a lorry taking 13km to overtake one other lorry. The traffic congestion that caused was very bad. But in general, lane discipline in the UK is the worst in western Europe. Most people will drive along the lane second closest to the central reservation. On a dual two lane motorway lane discipline is generally good, because most people will drive in lane 1 unless overtaking, but on a dual four lane motorway lane discipline is bad, because most people will drive in lane 3, and lanes 3 and 4 will be solid with traffic whilst lanes 1 and 2 just have the occasional lorries or good driver.

Something else we seem to have a lot of in the UK is van drivers. I do not see as many vans when I visit the continent. It seems like every company who is based at one end of a motorway works at the opposite end of the motorway. Since motorways have opened up work has become less locally sourced. For example, on a construction site the company doing the works will employ subcontractors based perhaps 100km away, even if there are some located 5km away. It probably comes down to money, but it results in congested roads. Fewer people live near where they work.
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