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Old June 20th, 2012, 08:11 PM   #7441
italystf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle
I've been installing traffic counters for years and if they were vandalized, 95% of the time they stopped functioning at Friday or Saturday nights between 1 and 4 am.
Are you a traffic engineer? Can you tell something about those traffic counters, I've never heard of them.
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Old June 20th, 2012, 08:19 PM   #7442
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Most major roads have permanent traffic counters, either with induction loops or bluetooth/radar based detection.

However, many municipal roads do not have permanent traffic counters, and to get some insight for local planning or modelling, temporary traffic counts are executed. I know they usually only count two workdays in the United States, but I always counted for a minimum of 7 consecutive days in a non-holiday period, though 14 days is better. The more the better basically, but it's rather expensive to do this for a long time. A traffic count on one location for a week can be € 200 -300 alone.

This is a temporary traffic counter, it works with air pressure. It registers axle length, so you can determine the class of the vehicle and their speed. Most traffic counts I've done are chiefly for statistical purposes, and only rarely to get insight in the driven speeds. Because it matters where you install the traffic counters. They can register speeds between 10 and 180 km/h.

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traffic counter by Chriszwolle, on Flickr
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Old June 20th, 2012, 08:51 PM   #7443
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Today a friend told me something that I find hard to believe. Imagine situation like this in NL:

A city installs zone 30 km limit boards in some streets. My friend told me that they dont have any legal power , because the streets were not "adjusted" (if I understood it correctly). Thus the police canot give you any fine there, because in fact those are still 50 km streets.

This seems to me a nonsence. Could someone explain to me what are the conditions for speed limit zones and their legal power. Is really placing the board not enough? Or what did I misunderstood. Thx.

Last edited by Surel; June 20th, 2012 at 09:58 PM. Reason: grammer
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Old June 20th, 2012, 09:00 PM   #7444
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The signs are always legal, even though it requires a "verkeersbesluit" (traffic decision) to install them, but they are legal nonetheless because motorists cannot judge whether a "verkeersbesluit" has been taken or not.

However, it does happen from time to time that the police says they won't enforce the new limit because it doesn't suit the road layout. On the other hand, some police think it's a great way to create some revenue, so don't take it for granted.
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Old June 20th, 2012, 09:45 PM   #7445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The signs are always legal, even though it requires a "verkeersbesluit" (traffic decision) to install them, but they are legal nonetheless because motorists cannot judge whether a "verkeersbesluit" has been taken or not.

However, it does happen from time to time that the police says they won't enforce the new limit because it doesn't suit the road layout. On the other hand, some police think it's a great way to create some revenue, so don't take it for granted.
Thx for the answer. I needed that word . So I guess when "gemeente" (city) places these 30 zone boards which are in no way temporary they already took the "verkeersbesluit". Or are they limited by another authority?

What my friend actually said was that the street design doesnt suit the speed (e.g. there are no dremples and other speed limiting design features) and therefore the 30 board is not legal. Thus I guess that was the urban version with twisted understanding. So I guess thats the situation here, there is no "verkeersbesluit". The local people just interpret with that there is no legal speed limit change happening...

If I got it correctly from wiki, the "verkeersbesluit" is there to make possible appealing against the change of the status of the road. So it is possible that a city places the boards without going into this verkeersbesluit process at all, just to do it quickly.

You and wiki says that neverthless the fines would be legal, even if the road would be without "verkeersbesluit".

What legal consequences does the missing "verkeersbesluit" have then? At least for the city hall. Could someone e.g. complain somewhere about the boards and city hall would have to remove them becaue there was no "verkeersbesluit"?

I dont want to use some loophoole in the law, just trying to help the locals. Just interested, mostly because people in the street where I live would like to have a woonerf and not a 30 km board, so this comes into discussions.

Last edited by Surel; June 20th, 2012 at 10:00 PM.
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Old June 20th, 2012, 09:54 PM   #7446
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Since when is the police allowed to have an opinion that conflicts with a law signed by elected politicians?
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Old June 21st, 2012, 11:43 AM   #7447
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The INRIX Traffic Scorecard shows that motorists in Utrecht and Rotterdam spend more time in traffic congestion than motorists in Los Angeles and New York. The average motorist in Rotterdam spends 66 hours a year in congestion, motorists in Utrecht waste 60 hours a year, compared to 57 hours in New York and 56 hours in Los Angeles.

1. Rotterdam: 66 hours
2. Utrecht: 60 hours
3. Amsterdam: 56 hours
4. Den Haag: 49 hours
5. Eindhoven: 41 hours
6. Groningen: 30 hours

I don't know the exact methodology of INRIX, but I assume non-freeway congestion plays a major role in the total time wasted.
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Old June 21st, 2012, 10:21 PM   #7448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The INRIX Traffic Scorecard shows that motorists in Utrecht and Rotterdam spend more time in traffic congestion than motorists in Los Angeles and New York. The average motorist in Rotterdam spends 66 hours a year in congestion, motorists in Utrecht waste 60 hours a year, compared to 57 hours in New York and 56 hours in Los Angeles.

1. Rotterdam: 66 hours
2. Utrecht: 60 hours
3. Amsterdam: 56 hours
4. Den Haag: 49 hours
5. Eindhoven: 41 hours
6. Groningen: 30 hours

I don't know the exact methodology of INRIX, but I assume non-freeway congestion plays a major role in the total time wasted.
Rotterdam and Utrecht freeways are very congested though.
Still these statistics seem kind of apples to oranges to me. By far the largest part of the congestion I guess is going to be people working in a different city (so the Rotterdam congestion figures might actually measure issues in The Hague). That's not so for Los Angeles or New York.
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Old June 22nd, 2012, 09:04 PM   #7449
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Tilburg Ring Road

Tilburg's now completed ring road will appear on the signs along the A58 motorway. Also; the three exits serving the city will be renamed.

[IMG]http://i46.************/2q3nbqa.png[/IMG]
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Old June 22nd, 2012, 10:36 PM   #7450
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Tilburg's now completed ring road will appear on the signs along the A58 motorway. Also; the three exits serving the city will be renamed.

[IMG]http://i46.************/2q3nbqa.png[/IMG]
There has been steady traffic on the NW bypass already... and a noticeable traffic reduction (empirical, don't have count numbers) on a shortcut through the access road + Bredasweg.

This by-pass also facilitates access to Dongen and provides an easy connection A261 => A58.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 08:08 AM   #7451
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I heard this news story on British radio, and they said Belgium, the Netherlands, Britain and Italy were the worst countries for hours spent in traffic.

Belgium - 55 hours
Netherlands - 50 hours
UK - 32 hours
Italy - 29 hours

In London the value is 66 hours.

Just for information, below are the population densities of each of these countries:

Belgium - 354.7/sq.km
Netherlands - 404.2/sq.km
UK - 255.6/sq.km
Italy - 201.2/sq.km

So the Netherlands is 14% more densely populated than Belgium, but Belgium suffers from 10% more hours of delay. And the Netherlands is 58% more densely populated than the UK and suffers 56% more hours of delay.

How is congestion spread in cities in the Netherlands? Do roads get congested for the whole day or just during morning and evening periods? When I visited the Netherlands the motorways seemed busy but not congested, except when there were accidents. I did drive through Amsterdam city centre, and that took a very long time. It may be an average of 50 hours per year, but over what average distance do these delays occur?

Last edited by sotonsteve; June 23rd, 2012 at 08:36 AM.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 10:03 AM   #7452
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The worst congestion is on urban roads, not on highways.

The urban roads on NL are mostly trash, so to speak, from capacity viewpoint. Rarely you'll find avenues with more than 2 lanes per direction in places like Amsterdam or Den Haag.

Rotterdam has some larger avenues but it suffers from lack of river crossings and people commute longer distances from suburbs where a meager 2+2 road with plenty of traffic lights is the only access.

They needed to build some elevated urban expressways to tackle the problem, but that is a huge no-go in NL. Thye want to "force people out of their cars", but that just don't happen, congestion does, instead.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 01:10 PM   #7453
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And the Netherlands is 58% more densely populated than the UK and suffers 56% more hours of delay.
which would be OK for the UK, except that NL doesn't have the Highlands, or Mid-Wales with no density and next-to-no congestion. A figure for England is 395/sq.km (though I don't have congestion figures, I'd expect them to be nearer Belgium).
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 11:28 PM   #7454
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Highway demolition in Utrecht

This is the demolition of the (old) stretch of A2 Amsterdam - Maastricht west of Utrecht opposite Leidsche Rijn.
The highway now goes through a tunnel and the old one is being demolished, a park and also a city square and houses and a railway station will be built there and the tunnel is meant to stop noise and pollution, so in the vicinity building is possible (otherwise there would be problems with pollution standards) and also to reduce the barrier which a busy motorway crates between Leidsche Rijn (ca 100,000 residents whern it is completely finished) and the older parts of Utrecht.





This mosaic map on the ventilation building shows what it will look like when all construction is finished.

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Old June 24th, 2012, 02:49 AM   #7455
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This is the demolition of the (old) stretch of A2 Amsterdam - Maastricht west of Utrecht opposite Leidsche Rijn.
The highway now goes through a tunnel and the old one is being demolished, a park and also a city square and houses and a railway station will be built there and the tunnel is meant to stop noise and pollution, so in the vicinity building is possible (otherwise there would be problems with pollution standards) and also to reduce the barrier which a busy motorway crates between Leidsche Rijn (ca 100,000 residents whern it is completely finished) and the older parts of Utrecht.
Fair enough about the pollution, EU crap I guess...

But ''reducing the barrier'' between Leidsche Rijn and the rest of Utrecht is bull****. The barrier was not the motorway but was, and still is, the Amsterdam-Rijnkanaal...

Nice picture of the ancient concrete plates though .

I think the Leische Rijn&Vleuten could use a complete ring road: An expressway link between the new exit 14a. on the A12, and the A2 near the north west of Maarssen, this would create a decent alternative for Rotterdam>Amsterdam traffic.

Last edited by snowdog; June 24th, 2012 at 02:55 AM.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 03:00 AM   #7456
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Old June 24th, 2012, 11:37 AM   #7457
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Fair enough about the pollution, EU crap I guess....
I know it's popular to blame the EU for all regulation that looks over the top, but EU-regulation does not require tunnels like these.

The A2 could have been widened using standard noise barriers or the original plan; a half-tunnel, which would have been about € 120 million cheaper. The "barrier" thing is mostly a subjective issue, as the developments would have been possible without a full tunnel as well.

The real barrier, as you point out, is the Amsterdam-Rhine Canal. But that's water, so that's politically correct.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 12:16 PM   #7458
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this one is not even a real tunnel, as it is above ground, so it is still a barrier...(big or small, it doesn't matter - it is still a barrier)
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Old June 24th, 2012, 04:25 PM   #7459
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this one is not even a real tunnel, as it is above ground, so it is still a barrier...(big or small, it doesn't matter - it is still a barrier)
Little hills are barriers now? They don't stop anyone. And the comparing highways to motorways circle jerk we have going on here is more than a bit disingenuous. And I don't think you guys are fooling anyone except maybe yourselves.
Waterfront property is in very high demand everywhere, a lot of people like to live and recreate on the waterfront, motorwayfront property is less valuable for some strange enigmatic reason....
But I guess the plebs are just as ignorant and irrational as their silly government huh? Don't know whats good for them: a nice motorway vista! I have a lot less issue with these urban tunnels than all those rural tunnels we seem to build here in the Netherlands.
Submerge the A16 instead of the A4!
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Old June 24th, 2012, 04:56 PM   #7460
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I can understand that a motorway vista isn't a nice prospect for anyone. But the justification for the Utrecht tunnel was much less in motorway vistas than in the barrier argument. For a good reason, since the A2 is much older than the residential areas that face the motorway. The urban planners that created the area knew the A2, knew its traffic levels and knew its overall impact on liveability. So they pretty much catered for the A2. It was done in other areas with actual or planned motorways too. Not many people have the motorway vista that you speak of, even though some towns have been outright stupid in planning new residential areas next to a motorway only to start complaining about the motorway immediately after realisation. Zoeterwoude comes to mind.

So back to Utrecht, the Leidsche Rijn area does not have residential areas with motorway vistas. But the tunnel had to come to fit in the plans for Leidsche Rijn Centrum, a real estate boom market project where the expected yields for the government and the public of the project would justify the costs of the tunnel. But like many comparable real estate megastructures proposed in the last five years or so, attempts to get the project off the ground have been pretty miserable. In any case, mitigating actual motorway vistas was, as far as I know, never an argument to justify the tunnel. The "barrier" argument together with the Leidsche Rijn Centrum plans prevailed for urban planners and local politicians alike. But the counterargument about the canal is spot-on, while the current state of the economy and the real estate sector have put the other argument to the grave. I like the drive through Utrecht, but I fail to see the justification. Likewise for the rural tunnels by the way.
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