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Old June 24th, 2012, 05:35 PM   #7461
Coccodrillo
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What are the rural tunnels you are talking about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ParadiseLost View Post
Little hills are barriers now? They don't stop anyone.
Hills are not, a wall like this, yes.

How will look like Utrecht's "tunnel" from the outside?
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Old June 24th, 2012, 05:57 PM   #7462
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What are the rural tunnels you are talking about?
The new A4 Delft-Schiedam. which will be underground to "protect the picturesque aspect of farmland"

Mind you there has been a levee built for the road there already... since the mid-1960s.


Quote:
Hills are not, a wall like this, yes.

How will look like Utrecht's "tunnel" from the outside?
They will raise the nearby areas and fill with land, making it a kind-of small plateau.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 09:57 PM   #7463
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Motorways in the Netherlands have some of the best soundproofing. Firstly, there is extensive use of porous low noise asphalt, and secondly there are those huge steel and glass sound barriers. I was astonished when I visited the Netherlands that I could stand next to a motorway and barely hear it.

In contrast, in Britain we are starting to use low noise surfacing, but a lot of road surfaces are very noisy, and our roads generally seem to be some of the noisiest in Europe. Secondly, our sound barriers are pathetic. At most they are just wooden fences with sound-deadening materials between the two skins of wood. A lot of urban areas still lack any form of noise barriers. Even where there are noise barriers, they are so ineffective that they might as well not exist, because the noise from the motorway is still considerable.

So from a noise point of view, motorways in the Netherlands could be considered the envy of the world in my opinion. Thumbs up.
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Old June 25th, 2012, 01:10 AM   #7464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The new A4 Delft-Schiedam. which will be underground to "protect the picturesque aspect of farmland"

Mind you there has been a levee built for the road there already... since the mid-1960s.




They will raise the nearby areas and fill with land, making it a kind-of small plateau.
Is that going to be underground? I thought it would be sunk but not covered?
What I meant was stuff like the HSR, which has huge tunnels trough rural areas. I think the betuwe route has as well both of them are rail but there are examples of motorway as well.
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Old June 25th, 2012, 01:16 AM   #7465
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Just sunk. There will be nothing on top. See this video: For the road itself skip to 1:30


The sunken part starts around 3:15
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Old June 25th, 2012, 11:57 AM   #7466
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Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
Fair enough about the pollution, EU crap I guess...
Our politicians are always trying to deceive us by telling us things like that are "made in Brussels." They are lying, don't believe them. EU legislation only accounts for some 12,5% of total legislation in our country and the EU doesn't ask us to build tunnels like that.

If you wanna know who's responsible for ridiculous projects like that, look no further than The Hague.

Last edited by Slagathor; June 25th, 2012 at 12:04 PM.
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Old June 25th, 2012, 03:28 PM   #7467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
A minor extension of 1.5 kilometers of A4 opened to traffic today. This directly puts A4 traffic onto the N259.

Video: Starting just south of Chris' pic going northbound. Then turning just south of Steenbergen and taking the route southbound too. We then take the exit Tholen (N286):
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Old June 25th, 2012, 08:48 PM   #7468
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The province of Limburg wants to "improve traffic safety and traffic flow" on N277. How are they going to do that? By demolishing a grade-separated interchange and replace it with a roundabout.

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Old June 25th, 2012, 08:56 PM   #7469
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I hope they're roundaboutizing ( ) only the non-grade-separated intersection below and to the right of the bridge...
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Old June 25th, 2012, 09:52 PM   #7470
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No, the entire overpass will be demolished! It will be replaced by a 5-branch roundabout.

Another argument of them was that a grade-separated interchange doesn't belong in an 80 km/h road. Another argument to downgrade expressways from 100 to 80 km/h was that "it didn't fit into the network". Only in the Netherlands you'll find reasoning like that.
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Old June 25th, 2012, 10:22 PM   #7471
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Let's see if I understand: NL wants to improve traffic safety on an intersection, so they are demolishing the existing grade-separated interchange and they are replacing it with a roundabout, when all the other countries in the world make exactly the opposite when they want to improve safety? I think I should get my pills...
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Old June 25th, 2012, 10:27 PM   #7472
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All the other countries in the world? The UK must be on the moon then...
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Old June 25th, 2012, 10:51 PM   #7473
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At least we're not the only morons who try to develop the road network by reducing capacity

Seriously, I consider demolishing a functonal building as a crime against both taxpayers and the environment.
The citizens should sue whoever decided this, and I'm not joking.

Does that overpass have any structural/age problems?

PS: I see there's even a bike path under that bridge... would it then have to cross the N-road?
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Old June 25th, 2012, 10:59 PM   #7474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol
Let's see if I understand: NL wants to improve traffic safety on an intersection, so they are demolishing the existing grade-separated interchange and they are replacing it with a roundabout, when all the other countries in the world make exactly the opposite when they want to improve safety? I think I should get my pills...
Grade-separate interchanges are always safer than at-grade intersections, included roundabouts.
If they think that road is unsafe to 100 kph they could reduce the speed limit without demolishing the interchange.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old June 25th, 2012, 11:03 PM   #7475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275
At least we're not the only morons who try to develop the road network by reducing capacity

Seriously, I consider demolishing a functonal building as a crime against both taxpayers and the environment.
The citizens should sue whoever decided this, and I'm not joking.

Does that overpass have any structural/age problems?

PS: I see there's even a bike path under that bridge... would it then have to cross the N-road?
Agree.
But what similar cases in Italy do you know?
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old June 25th, 2012, 11:03 PM   #7476
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The speed limit already is 80 km/h.
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Old June 25th, 2012, 11:12 PM   #7477
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
No, the entire overpass will be demolished! It will be replaced by a 5-branch roundabout.

Another argument of them was that a grade-separated interchange doesn't belong in an 80 km/h road. Another argument to downgrade expressways from 100 to 80 km/h was that "it didn't fit into the network". Only in the Netherlands you'll find reasoning like that.
It is not that mad at all. The maintenance of the bridge cost a lot of money in the long run. Not to mention that a GSJ occupies more land than an at-grade junction. This can only be justified when this road serves as a trunk route in the overall road network and is therefore grade-separated for long stretches or an enhanced junction capacity is needed. As neither seems to be the case it makes perfectly sense to replace this GSJ with a roundabout.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
Let's see if I understand: NL wants to improve traffic safety on an intersection, so they are demolishing the existing grade-separated interchange and they are replacing it with a roundabout, when all the other countries in the world make exactly the opposite when they want to improve safety? I think I should get my pills...
The grade-separated road might be safe. This GSJ, however, does also contain sub-junctions in the form of crossroads between the slip roads and the intersecting road. These crossroads are certainly less safe than the proposed roundabout. Therefore it is pretty likely that this proposal will improve the safety record of the overall junction.
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Old June 25th, 2012, 11:17 PM   #7478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy

It is not that mad at all. The maintenance of the bridge cost a lot of money in the long run. Not to mention that a GSJ occupies more land than an at-grade junction. This can only be justified when this road serves as a trunk route in the overall road network and is therefore grade-separated for long stretches or an enhanced junction capacity is needed. As neither seems to be the case it makes perfectly sense to replace this GSJ with a roundabout.
I think that, unless a bridge has severe structural problems, maintenance costs aren't that high, compared to its demolition and replacement costs.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old June 25th, 2012, 11:26 PM   #7479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
The grade-separated road might be safe. This GSJ, however, does also contain sub-junctions in the form of crossroads between the slip roads and the intersecting road. These crossroads are certainly less safe than the proposed roundabout. Therefore it is pretty likely that this proposal will improve the safety record of the overall junction.
Why not build 2 smaller roundabouts on each side of the main road, without affecting the main traffic flow? It would be safer for everyone and traffic will flow a lot smoother on the main road...
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Old June 25th, 2012, 11:51 PM   #7480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi
All the other countries in the world? The UK must be on the moon then...
How? More and more roundabouts on dual carriageways are being replaced by interchanges. A1 between Peterborough and Doncaster is a good example.
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