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Old June 26th, 2012, 12:36 AM   #7481
snowdog
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The person who decided downgrading that situation is a good idea should be thrown in prison to rot.
Retard!
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Old June 26th, 2012, 12:54 AM   #7482
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I'm glad you're not a judge.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 01:06 AM   #7483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
I think that, unless a bridge has severe structural problems, maintenance costs aren't that high, compared to its demolition and replacement costs.
Demolition are one-time cost while maintenance burdens the budget each year. A bridge of that size costs easily €10'000/year. This adds up over the decades. And maintenance for a bridge that isn't needed is a waste of resources.

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Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
Why not build 2 smaller roundabouts on each side of the main road, without affecting the main traffic flow? It would be safer for everyone and traffic will flow a lot smoother on the main road...
How do you know that the N 277 is the main flow of traffic? I wouldn't be surprised if the N 275 carries more traffic at this junction.
In either case one roundabout instead of a GSJ simplifies the whole affair enormously. To stick to an over-engineered junction just for the sake of it isn't worth the expenses that come along with it. Not in this case.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 01:18 AM   #7484
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Removing a freeflow situation and creating a roundabout means more braking and accelerating - thus creating more unnecessary pollution. If that pollution can be prevented by just a few thousand euro's a year, that's better for all.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 09:37 AM   #7485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
How do you know that the N 277 is the main flow of traffic? I wouldn't be surprised if the N 275 carries more traffic at this junction.
In either case one roundabout instead of a GSJ simplifies the whole affair enormously. To stick to an over-engineered junction just for the sake of it isn't worth the expenses that come along with it. Not in this case.
If there would be an empty field I wouldn't have argued over the interchange/roundabout dispute, but since there is already a functional 2-level interchange, why demolish it and build a roundabout?

About the money: I bet that it's cheaper to mantain the existing interchange in the next 30 years than downgrading it into a roundabout + roundabout mantainance.

PS: in Romania we build many new roads, but because of lack of funds we sometimes choose roundabout over interchange. If you don't need the interchange please send it to Romania
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Old June 26th, 2012, 10:36 AM   #7486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
A bridge of that size costs easily €10'000/year.
In other words, 8 diesel car drivers are enough to pay for this bridge.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 11:47 AM   #7487
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It indeed seems to be ridiculous. How are they tendering for this "downgrade"? They need some traffic studies in order to come up with those free flow arguments, don't they? I would be interested in those who made them...
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Old June 26th, 2012, 11:51 AM   #7488
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In Italy roundabouts were rarely used until the 90s, so we have many interchanges where they would build a roundabout today, but nobody ever think to demolish the old ones.
Now, in new roads with high AADT we often build roundabouts with flyovers, so drivers travelling on the main road don't have to enter the roundabout.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 11:53 AM   #7489
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Traffic volumes "fork" into all three directions at this point.

The bridge was prepared as a single carriageway for a motorway, having space for 2 lanes and a shoulder. It was constructed circa 1970.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 02:01 PM   #7490
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A67 Eindhoven - Geldrop widening

There has been an agreement about the improvement of traffic flow along the A67 motorway between Leenderheide interchange and Geldrop. Short-term measures involve the extension and doubling of merging lanes at the Leenderheide motorway interchange, and a full widening to 2x3 lanes will follow between 2020 and 2023.

The A67 is notorious for the high truck volumes. The A67 carries 73.000 vehicles per day, including 29% trucks (21.200 trucks per day).

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Old June 26th, 2012, 03:56 PM   #7491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Demolition are one-time cost while maintenance burdens the budget each year. A bridge of that size costs easily €10'000/year. This adds up over the decades.
A project do demolish that bridge and reconstruct adjoining roads will cost several millions. That means several 100 years of bridge maintenance and also several 100 years of better safety and traffic flow.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 05:58 PM   #7492
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130 km/h

The speed limits in the Netherlands starting September 1st, 2012.

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Old June 26th, 2012, 06:05 PM   #7493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
A project do demolish that bridge and reconstruct adjoining roads will cost several millions. That means several 100 years of bridge maintenance and also several 100 years of better safety and traffic flow.
This bridge is a relict of a proposal that has been given up. It is going to be removed one day as it doesn't serve a reasonable purpose anymore. The cost for its demolition will arise regardless when that will happen. So you can't weigh these expenses against the proposed junction rebuilding.

The rebuilding of this junction will barely cost a million euro. Half a million euro is more likely. That is adequate to just a couple of decades of maintenance not only for the bridge but for the slip roads of this extensive junction as well.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 06:11 PM   #7494
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80 km/h, A20 Rotterdam

Some interesting research about the implementing of 80 km/h on the A20 in Rotterdam showed travel times on this section increased by 40% after the speed limit was lowered from 100 to 80 km/h. They did trials with raising it to 100 km/h again, and travel times decreased by 40% again.

The speed limit will now be raised to 100 km/h outside rush hours and on the edges of rush hour to improve traffic flow.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 09:36 PM   #7495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Some interesting research about the implementing of 80 km/h on the A20 in Rotterdam showed travel times on this section increased by 40% after the speed limit was lowered from 100 to 80 km/h. They did trials with raising it to 100 km/h again, and travel times decreased by 40% again.

The speed limit will now be raised to 100 km/h outside rush hours and on the edges of rush hour to improve traffic flow.
Can I have your source, I'd love to prove some idiots wrong who are convinced 80km/h was better for traffic flow there!
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Old June 26th, 2012, 09:38 PM   #7496
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Here you go:
http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/minister...rotterdam.html
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Old June 26th, 2012, 10:21 PM   #7497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
It is going to be removed one day as it doesn't serve a reasonable purpose anymore.
Dividing traffic flows is not a reasonable purpose?

Quote:
The rebuilding of this junction will barely cost a million euro. Half a million euro is more likely. That is adequate to just a couple of decades of maintenance not only for the bridge but for the slip roads of this extensive junction as well.
How much does it cost extra spent fuel because of slowed traffic flows and decreased traffic safety? I bet it costs much more than mainteance of the bridge, even some renewal after years of wear. And I'm still sure that this would cost several millions, not just one half. There is quite lot to do to convert this junction to a big roundabout.

I don't know about you, but being myself a civil engineer and having already quite some experience I could not trust to some ideas of local politicians (doesn't matter if in Netherlands or elsewhere) which are contrary even to simple logic.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 10:37 PM   #7498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
How? More and more roundabouts on dual carriageways are being replaced by interchanges. A1 between Peterborough and Doncaster is a good example.
In the rest of the world, the A1 in Britain would be a motorway with restrictions on vehicles allowed to use the road and higher design standards. The A1 as it is now is probably comparable with a Dutch motorway in the 1950s.

Health and Safety would suggest that you cannot put a price on a person's life, so by replacing a grade separated junction with an at-grade roundabout junction you are effectively dealing out the death sentence, as at-grade junctions have poorer accident records due to more traffic directly conflicting with each other on the junction.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 10:48 PM   #7499
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The main problem with Dutch roundabouts is that they almost always use the minimum design standard, even for roundabouts on provincial highways outside cities. These generally have a radius of 18 meters and have very tight corners, trucks can usually not drive more than 15 - 20 km/h on them and it takes them 600 - 800 meters to get back at 80 km/h again. I'm not against roundabouts per se, but the current trend is to replace every minor uncontrolled intersection with a roundabout, which is very annoying.

For example Winterswijk - Zwolle is about 90 kilometers, but it takes almost 2 hours to drive it, despite you almost never enter any city limits. The main reason for the low average speed is the large amounts of roundabouts.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 10:53 PM   #7500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
How do you know that the N 277 is the main flow of traffic? I wouldn't be surprised if the N 275 carries more traffic at this junction.
Even if the flow on the bridge is not the main one, at least it does not create conflicts with the others. By removing the overpass the -even if minor- flow that today has no conflicts will then have some, adding up to the main ones.

I'm not a road expert: can anybody explain what a road concrete bridge's maintenance costs are? I can't figure them out
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