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Old June 26th, 2012, 10:57 PM   #7501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
I'm not a road expert: can anybody explain what a road concrete bridge's maintenance costs are? I can't figure them out
I am almost 100% sure that it's cheaper to keep the bridge and mantain it in the next X years, than to demolish it, replace it with a roundabout, and mantain the roundabout for the same X years.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 10:58 PM   #7502
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I am, too, but maybe we're ignoring some data
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Old June 26th, 2012, 11:26 PM   #7503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
I'm not a road expert: can anybody explain what a road concrete bridge's maintenance costs are? I can't figure them out
Usually there are zero mainteance cost. If the bridge has expansion joints (older one usually have them), this means cleaning sand out every year (one worker and a broom or water hose should be enough) - cost for that is negligible and should not standout over standard road mainteance works (like cutting grass, replacing worn and damaged signage and barriers, cleaning ditches and shafts etc). Then every two or three decades some more serious overhaul can be necessary, costing few 10000 € at most - this is in case if an object is structurally OK - if not cost can rise to 100.000 € or maybe even more - but then it will hold another few decades.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 11:41 PM   #7504
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Its bit more complicated than that.

Lets imagine we are in the middle of the bridge's lifetime L.
Lets the maintenance costs per period of such a bridge be Mb
Lets total reconstruction costs of the bridge be Rb
Lets the demolishing the bridge cost Db

Lets the maintenance costs per period of such a roundabout be Mo
Lets the construction costs of the roundabout be Co
Lets total reconstruction costs of the roundabout be Ro

Not taking into account the time value of money...

keeping the bridge for n more periods would cost:

Mb/2+Rb+Mb+....= Mb/2+n(Rb+Mb) ....... (1)

demolishing that bridge and keeping roundabout for n more periods would cost

Db+Co+Mo/2+Ro+Mo+... = Db+Co+Mo/2+n(Ro+Mo) ....... (2)

we can assume that (Rb+Mb)Ro+Mo) <=> taking care of a bridge is more costly than taking care of a roundabout

but. Mb/2<(Db+Co+Mo/2) <=> demolishing and building roundabout is certainly more costly than taking care of the bridge till the end of its lifetime in this period.

=> How many periods (one period is 30 years) are necessary in order to justify building roundabout? ( I neglect here the actuall traffic gains or losses, just the construction and maintenance).

we would have to solve it empirically. Lets say that demolishing bridge and constructing roundabout costs around the same. Lets say that reconstructing the bridge is 10 times more costly than building the roundabout and that maintenance per period is one fifth of the original price).

Lets say the time horizon is 60 years (2 periods)
we get for keeping the bridge the costs:

6*n*Mb+Mb/2 =12,5*Mb

for the roundabout variant:

10Mo+Mo/2+6*n*Mo=22,5Mo

It would pay off to keep the bridge if the roundabout maintenance cost were 56 % of the bridge maintanance cost. Surely with lower maintenance costs and lower total reconstruction costs of the bridge the feasible time horizon would get longer. I suspect in this example, that the invested money would not come back in say 200 years...


Its all just question of plugging real world numbers into (1) and (2)
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Old June 26th, 2012, 11:59 PM   #7505
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Originally Posted by sotonsteve View Post
In the rest of the world, the A1 in Britain would be a motorway with restrictions on vehicles allowed to use the road and higher design standards. The A1 as it is now is probably comparable with a Dutch motorway in the 1950s.
Every country in Europe has many hundreds or thousands of kms of road that could be classified as motorways but they aren't.
The so called expressways (de facto motorways) are usually completely grade-separated, have two or more lanes per direction and are off limits to non-motorized traffic, moped and agricultural vehicles.
Even if sometimes they're better than many old motorways, for some technical or political reason they aren't officially classificated like them.
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Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
I am almost 100% sure that it's cheaper to keep the bridge and mantain it in the next X years, than to demolish it, replace it with a roundabout, and mantain the roundabout for the same X years.
If a similar decision was taken in Italy, I would think that some company with the right friendship in the government got the contract for that expensive and useless job. Unfortunately we had many things like that, not only involving road projects but every kind of project.
But, thinking that the part of Europe between the Alps and the Barents sea is a bit different, probably some "environmentalist" complained that the viaduct spoiled the view of that unique landscape (yes, open countryside like anywhere in the world ) or made people driving faster and thus polluting more (and cars almost stopping on the roundabouts are clean?)

Last edited by italystf; June 27th, 2012 at 12:09 AM.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 01:01 AM   #7506
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
If a similar decision was taken in Italy, I would think that some company with the right friendship in the government got the contract for that expensive and useless job. Unfortunately we had many things like that, not only involving road projects but every kind of project.
But, thinking that the part of Europe between the Alps and the Barents sea is a bit different, probably some "environmentalist" complained that the viaduct spoiled the view of that unique landscape (yes, open countryside like anywhere in the world ) or made people driving faster and thus polluting more (and cars almost stopping on the roundabouts are clean?)
I don't think it is that different. Its allways boils down to the same question, who profits from it... Thats also one of the main reasons why the current crises exists.

Therefore, I would be very curious about the tendering process in this case and about the planing and studies on which the planning is based.

I tried to find some reasoning behind this. I found this presentation link. There is no mention of the costs of that operation. As the most important reasons seems to be the safety situation, although I did not get the reasoning. There is some football association involved in the iniciating the process and one of the plus points is that there wont be paralel traffic next to the football fields. Well, perhaps someone died going on bike from the training? I dont know. Did not have time reading and translating, although it seems easily reasoned without any real analysis right? .

Last edited by Surel; June 27th, 2012 at 02:14 AM.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 10:06 AM   #7507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Every country in Europe has many hundreds or thousands of kms of road that could be classified as motorways but they aren't.
The so called expressways (de facto motorways) are usually completely grade-separated, have two or more lanes per direction and are off limits to non-motorized traffic, moped and agricultural vehicles.
Even if sometimes they're better than many old motorways, for some technical or political reason they aren't officially classificated like them.
Non motorways often don't apply to the motorway design guidelines on road alignement, especially vertical curveradius and superelevation in curves.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 12:20 PM   #7508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
Lets say that reconstructing the bridge is 10 times more costly than building the roundabout and that maintenance per period is one fifth of the original price).
New bridge costs about 1 -1,5 million €, built from the scratch.
Roundabout with all the necessary reconstruction of the access roads in this case costs something similar or even more.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 12:39 PM   #7509
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Originally Posted by aswnl
Non motorways often don't apply to the motorway design guidelines on road alignement, especially vertical curveradius and superelevation in curves.
Yes, but those differences are more technical than practical and have little interest to drivers, apart for lower speed limits set by law.
Many motorways built before the 80s are technically more similar to expressways, rather to motorways but they are still classificated like motorways because they were motorways when they were build and are still part of important routes. One example is the Italian A10 from Genoa to the French border.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 03:52 PM   #7510
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Perhaps in Italy, but in a lot of countries there is a real difference between guidelines for A- and S-roads. And yes, it is of interest to a driver whether he's driving a roalercoaster-ride or on a real motorway.

Although there are some governments giving A-numbers tot ssubstandard motorways. Like the French A75. Beautiful road, but very substandard to international motorway design guidelines.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 04:16 PM   #7511
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N57 in the late 1980's:
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Old June 27th, 2012, 04:33 PM   #7512
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I've always felt that bicycle lane is much too wide.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 05:07 PM   #7513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aswnl

Perhaps in Italy, but in a lot of countries there is a real difference between guidelines for A- and S-roads. And yes, it is of interest to a driver whether he's driving a roalercoaster-ride or on a real motorway.

Although there are some governments giving A-numbers tot ssubstandard motorways. Like the French A75. Beautiful road, but very substandard to international motorway design guidelines.
There are some S roads in Austria (S6, S35 and maybe other) that are real motorways with 130 limit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle
N57 in the late 1980's:
What kind of structure is it? A dam to separate a gulf from the ocean?
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 05:11 PM   #7514
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What kind of structure is it? A dam to separate a gulf from the ocean?
Yes. Click here for its location in Google Maps.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 06:14 PM   #7515
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I've always felt that bicycle lane is much too wide.
Isn't that also a road for slow traffic like tractors?
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Old June 27th, 2012, 06:17 PM   #7516
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I've never witnessed that but then I've only cycled across it some ~25 times so that's not saying much...
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Old June 27th, 2012, 06:40 PM   #7517
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Nope nevermind, just saw this sign on Streetview...

Weird though, that this is the next sign. I am officially confused...
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Old June 27th, 2012, 06:53 PM   #7518
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Irregular one-way signs in Amsterdam

Amsterdam disrespect the regulations (or is it only habit) of the rest of the country when it comes to sign one-way streets for drivers who shouldn't enter a car-abled road on the counter-flow.

The sign for this circumstance is this:


as used, for instance, here and here in my city.

It indicates that:
(i) you cannot enter that road / street, AND
(ii) there is road traffic on that road / street

In Amsterdam, however, especially in older areas, they use this sign for the same very purpose


as seen in:
http://goo.gl/maps/VytC
http://goo.gl/maps/iAGM
http://goo.gl/maps/Itdj

These are all normal road in which anyone could drive coming from the opposite direction.

Why does this inconsistency exists and why doesn't Amsterdam fix its signs?

It somehow surprises me given the Dutch care with standards and proper signaling.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 07:10 PM   #7519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
Dividing traffic flows is not a reasonable purpose?
Not at a random junction in rural Limburg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
How much does it cost extra spent fuel because of slowed traffic flows and decreased traffic safety? I bet it costs much more than mainteance of the bridge, even some renewal after years of wear. And I'm still sure that this would cost several millions, not just one half. There is quite lot to do to convert this junction to a big roundabout.
I don't know what you perceive as big in terms of roundabouts. But I can't imagine that the diameter of the proposed one exceeds 40 m. And this won't cost more than half a million euro.

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I don't know about you, but being myself a civil engineer and having already quite some experience I could not trust to some ideas of local politicians (doesn't matter if in Netherlands or elsewhere) which are contrary even to simple logic.
If you really were a civil engineer than you would know that this is not the decision of politicians but of road engineers of the provincial administration. And those engineers have studied this junction carefully with all necessary statistics and numbers at their at their disposal. The guesswork on which you base your judgement, however, is pretty weak to contest the decision of those in charge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
I am almost 100% sure that it's cheaper to keep the bridge and mantain it in the next X years, than to demolish it, replace it with a roundabout, and mantain the roundabout for the same X years.
Did you come to this conclusion on the basis of something other than pure guessing?
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Old June 27th, 2012, 07:20 PM   #7520
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Suburbanist, it's a way of letting cyclists through.

Last edited by sotonsi; June 27th, 2012 at 07:25 PM.
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