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Old June 27th, 2012, 07:34 PM   #7521
Surel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post

If you really were a civil engineer than you would know that this is not the decision of politicians but of road engineers of the provincial administration. And those engineers have studied this junction carefully with all necessary statistics and numbers at their at their disposal. The guesswork on which you base your judgement, however, is pretty weak to contest the decision of those in charge.
Would you be so kind and provide us a link to the analysis of those engineers? The only thing I found as to the reasoning of this change is a presentation from a meeting of provincial and local authorities with very little hard data reasoning.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 07:35 PM   #7522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Suburbanist, it's a way of letting cyclists through.
I thought that is done with "fietsers uitgezondered" white board under or something like that. That sign from suburbanists post is indeed confusing.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 08:37 PM   #7523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Amsterdam disrespect the regulations (or is it only habit) of the rest of the country when it comes to sign one-way streets for drivers who shouldn't enter a car-abled road on the counter-flow.

The sign for this circumstance is this:


as used, for instance, here and here in my city.

It indicates that:
(i) you cannot enter that road / street, AND
(ii) there is road traffic on that road / street

In Amsterdam, however, especially in older areas, they use this sign for the same very purpose


as seen in:
http://goo.gl/maps/VytC
http://goo.gl/maps/iAGM
http://goo.gl/maps/Itdj

These are all normal road in which anyone could drive coming from the opposite direction.

Why does this inconsistency exists and why doesn't Amsterdam fix its signs?

It somehow surprises me given the Dutch care with standards and proper signaling.
A.f.a.i.k the first one is to denote one-way traffic (from the closed side) and the second one means no motorized traffic allowed (from either side).
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Old June 27th, 2012, 08:41 PM   #7524
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
I thought that is done with "fietsers uitgezondered" white board under or something like that. That sign from suburbanists post is indeed confusing.
To let cyclists on the counter-flow, you can just use the no entrance sign + (brom)fietsers uitgezondered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by julesstoop View Post
A.f.a.i.k the first one is to denote one-way traffic (from the closed side) and the second one means no motorized traffic allowed (from either side).
That is what they meant, but it is clear (from looking on Goolge MAps and from my own driving experience in central Amsterdam) that those are one-way streets where car traffic is allowed indeed (just not in that direction).

Hence my quarrel: it is a misuse of the sign, for no apparent reason?

There are dozens of them in Amsterdam, the whole Jordaan area is indeed full of them.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 08:54 PM   #7525
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Strange indeed then.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 09:24 PM   #7526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
To let cyclists on the counter-flow, you can just use the no entrance sign + (brom)fietsers uitgezondered.
Certainly in the UK this kind of move is frowned upon as it waters down the No Entry sign, which is primarily used where there are safety reasons, like no space/too fast for a contraflow cycle lane.

I've certainly seen similar things in the UK. More common is cyclists only signs, coupled with banned turns+except cyclists (and even more common is the same with buses added in). The best one I've seen is one pole with either side flagged up with "No Motor Vehicles" to stop non-cyclists using the lowered pavement to get from a side street to a main street.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 09:28 PM   #7527
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I think they needed to come up with some bike-only frame for signs. Something like brown inverted triangles with light yellow characters/figures. Those signs, where existing, would concern only bicycles, segaways and what else.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 09:28 PM   #7528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Not at a random junction in rural Limburg.
Yes it is, ideally all roads everywhere should be grade separated everywhere ( of course impossible due to space limitations and costs), it increases average travel speed...

Now you have to slow down for a stupid roundabout instead of continuing your way at 80km/h on cruise control if you used the overpass...
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Old June 27th, 2012, 10:14 PM   #7529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Amsterdam disrespect the regulations (or is it only habit) of the rest of the country when it comes to sign one-way streets for drivers who shouldn't enter a car-abled road on the counter-flow.

The sign for this circumstance is this:


as used, for instance, here and here in my city.

It indicates that:
(i) you cannot enter that road / street, AND
(ii) there is road traffic on that road / street

In Amsterdam, however, especially in older areas, they use this sign for the same very purpose


as seen in:
http://goo.gl/maps/VytC
http://goo.gl/maps/iAGM
http://goo.gl/maps/Itdj

These are all normal road in which anyone could drive coming from the opposite direction.

Why does this inconsistency exists and why doesn't Amsterdam fix its signs?

It somehow surprises me given the Dutch care with standards and proper signaling.
As someone living it Amsterdam, I've learnt that if you see the top sign it is a one way(left) part of the street and there is a parallel part of the same street going the other way on usually the other side of the canal.

So you can go that direction but just on the other side of the water.

like this



The bottom sign is used when it is just a one way street.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 10:39 PM   #7530
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The Dutch are unaware of the meaning of that sign anyway. Every winter license plates from all over Europe are to be seen here in Mayrhofen, from as far as Russia, Norway, Ireland, Portugal and Greece, and the Dutch are the only ones that still keep on driving through the Hauptstraße (Main Street) the wrong way. They just don't care about local regulations.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 10:49 PM   #7531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
The so called expressways (de facto motorways) are usually completely grade-separated, have two or more lanes per direction and are off limits to non-motorized traffic, moped and agricultural vehicles.
Even if sometimes they're better than many old motorways, for some technical or political reason they aren't officially classificated like them.
There is a road near me that was upgraded to a motorway in all but name. The reason for it not being reclassified as a motorway is a mystery, but people have died because of it. Just because it would be idiotic for the likes of cyclists to cycle on a road with large volumes of traffic including articulated trucks all travelling between 90 and 130km/h does not stop them from doing so. There is the mentality of "It is legal, therefore I can and I will". Cyclists have died cycling on the expressway near me, and there has also been a fatal accident involving a combine harvester on the road. If the road had just had its signage made blue, these accidents would not have happened and people would not have died.

I believe that all high volume nationally important fast roads should have motorway restrictions. I do not mind if the vertical or horizontal alignment is not as good, as long as there is grade separation and a ban on certain road users. There is a reason why motorways are the safest roads to drive on. Banning so called vulnerable road users is one thing, and grade separation is another. That is why it is madness to demolish a flyover and build a roundabout.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 11:23 PM   #7532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keokiracer View Post
Nope nevermind, just saw this sign on Streetview...

Weird though, that this is the next sign. I am officially confused...
Second sign appears to be temporary in relation to roadworks..?
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Old June 27th, 2012, 11:25 PM   #7533
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But why put it there since there are no cars allowed there??
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Old June 28th, 2012, 12:01 AM   #7534
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Maybe they were temporarily allowed on there because of the roadworks...
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Old June 28th, 2012, 10:59 AM   #7535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Certainly in the UK this kind of move is frowned upon as it waters down the No Entry sign, which is primarily used where there are safety reasons, like no space/too fast for a contraflow cycle lane.

I've certainly seen similar things in the UK. More common is cyclists only signs, coupled with banned turns+except cyclists (and even more common is the same with buses added in). The best one I've seen is one pole with either side flagged up with "No Motor Vehicles" to stop non-cyclists using the lowered pavement to get from a side street to a main street.
The 'uitgezonderd (brom)fietsers' board is the only way I have seen these situations signed in the Netherlands so it's far from frowned upon. I've never been to Amsterdam and have not seen those signs Suburbanist linked to.
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Old June 28th, 2012, 11:26 AM   #7536
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Living in Amsterdam I can tell you this:

This sign:


Has replaced this sign:


In the last twenty years or so, because cycling traffic is in most cases allowed to go the other way.

The correct sign would be this:

(no entry, except for bicycles), but it requires two signs. This would be needed in pretty much every street in Amsterdam.

Officially if you use this sign from one direction:


You should use this sign from the other direction:


And in most cases in Amsterdam it should be this:


In Amsterdam these signs are also not placed. So in stead of needing four signs for one stretch of one-way street, in Amsterdam they use only one (the forbidden for car sign). It is technically wrong, but it works, saves you a lot of signs, and does not look as messy.

Last edited by woutero; June 28th, 2012 at 11:33 AM.
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Old June 28th, 2012, 01:29 PM   #7537
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Lame excuse.

Amsterdam is not exactly a poor place and we are not talking of massive gantry signs.

The red signs with white stripe is much more visible and easy to spot. They are what drivers who don't know the directions (those who live in the neighborhoods likely know what way each street goes) look for when looking whether they could enter a street or not.
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Old June 28th, 2012, 02:27 PM   #7538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
Would you be so kind and provide us a link to the analysis of those engineers? The only thing I found as to the reasoning of this change is a presentation from a meeting of provincial and local authorities with very little hard data reasoning.
I doubt that these studies are published on the internet. But you can call the road agency of the province of Limburg if you like. They can provide you the detailed analysis of this particular junction.
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Old June 28th, 2012, 02:36 PM   #7539
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N11 Rijnland Route, Leiden

States-Provincial of Zuid-Holland province approved the construction of the Rijnland Route Expressway yesterday with 32 votes for and 22 against. The new expressway will run south of Leiden and has a stellar budget of over € 900 million. A total of € 1.4 billion will be invested in roads and public transport in the Leiden region.



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Old June 28th, 2012, 02:50 PM   #7540
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Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
I doubt that these studies are published on the internet. But you can call the road agency of the province of Limburg if you like. They can provide you the detailed analysis of this particular junction.
Are they not published on the internet? Wow, I am surprised. Why don't they publish them? I find this hard to believe. There must be some process that any construction have to follow. Don't they present the whole process on the internet to allow anyone to comment and take part in the process?

If you have some link to information about Dutch public tendering and project planning process, please post it.

And what about tendering process? Is it somewhere on the internet or not?

You argued that the decision is backed by expert studies. Did you see them? How do you know then?

I will not call anywhere, it has too little priority to me to undergo so many costs because of some junction I will probably never see. Nevertheless, I am quite curios about the decision making process that leads to such decisions.
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