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Old August 7th, 2012, 03:25 PM   #7801
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
What bothers me is that people here tend to come onto a faster lane with the incorrect speed (too slow). They don't seem to understand you should gather speed *before* you come onto a fast lane.
Agreed, but that is not always easy when the right lane is too slow with trucks, campers or else.

In Germany this problem is worse. On 2x2 highways, sometimes I deliberately decelerate as to gain some space to the vehicle in front so that I can gain speed then move to the left lane. Especially when ars 150 km/h+ are driving on the left lane and I'm stuck at 80-90 km/h on the right lane.
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Old August 7th, 2012, 03:26 PM   #7802
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Rear view mirror most of the time, left side mirror only really when moving left, sometimes when I drive slow my right side mirror (when merging and not on the right). Usually drive at a speed that the right mirror is obsolete really though . I do check my mirror every 30 seconds at least though, albeit for the wrong reasons I guess than I learned on my lessons ( mostly as I am paranoid for unmarked coppers, and to see if there is the odd car that wants to go faster than me).

And yeah, Dutch idiots have no idea about the right of way and that you have to yield for all when changing a lane.
Quote:
the left lane is full of Germans, who don't let any space to allow me to pass the truck.
I never have that problem, probably because I move at the same or faster speed as those Germans .
Quote:
In Poland is even forbidden by law...
It is here too but cops often find it more important to cash on ''fast'' drivers than Nur Links drivers...

In Poland you have something FAR more annoying, trucks overtaking each other for 2 minutes or longer at 81km/h. I have regularly seen fed up people overtake them on the hard shoulder due to the stupid slow truck overtaking.

Last edited by snowdog; August 7th, 2012 at 03:36 PM.
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Old August 7th, 2012, 03:27 PM   #7803
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
And there is the Dutch problem: 'they don't leave me any space.' You do not have the right of way if you want to move to an overtaking lane, and nobody is under any obligation to leave you any space. You have to wait until there is enough room to move over, and especially in Germany you need to think well in advance before you consider manouvring lanes. You have to use your instinct and your brains, instead of moaning that nobody lets you in. Do it correctly, and you don't even have to slow down that much.
Exactly!! Indeed!! And this what is in Polish Driving Law: You do not have the right of way if you want to move to an overtaking lane, and nobody is under any obligation to leave you any space. You have to wait until there is enough room to move over and then start overtaking!
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Old August 7th, 2012, 03:34 PM   #7804
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So I guess the solution is just staying in the left lane.

I am not talking about rights. We all have the right to be stuck in traffic. I am talking about how to use the road efficiently.

I am not someone who drives slowly. But when I can move to the right, I do (which is also a law). But when I am going 140km/h and a truck is going 80km/h and I want to pass the truck and get into the left lane full of people going 130 - 150km/h, it is a lot more efficient if they give me some space.

If we can't expect that of other road users, everyone is just always going to stay in the left lane, which is what happens in Germany, and it results in everybody going slower than they want to and than is necessary.

I guess in NL we are more used to using the roads as efficiently as possible together, and not so focussed on 'I need to go faster'.

Last edited by woutero; August 7th, 2012 at 03:39 PM.
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Old August 7th, 2012, 04:59 PM   #7805
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You have no idea on how to drive on a motorway, but your way of thinking is very Dutch indeed. Forcing people to brake heavily to let you in creates chain reactions. The more people start showing their brake lights, and the quicker the congestion that follows. Everybody has to slow down at some point, and I force people to slow down as well . But I won't jump in front of someone who is doing 200 when I am doing 130. I'll calculate and adapt my speed to avoid slowing down heavily. You are obviously not good at that. And your remark that you will keep left is down right ridiculous.
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Old August 7th, 2012, 05:09 PM   #7806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog
Rear view mirror most of the time, left side mirror only really when moving left, sometimes when I drive slow my right side mirror (when merging and not on the right). Usually drive at a speed that the right mirror is obsolete really though . I do check my mirror every 30 seconds at least though, albeit for the wrong reasons I guess than I learned on my lessons ( mostly as I am paranoid for unmarked coppers, and to see if there is the odd car that wants to go faster than me).

And yeah, Dutch idiots have no idea about the right of way and that you have to yield for all when changing a lane.

I never have that problem, probably because I move at the same or faster speed as those Germans .

It is here too but cops often find it more important to cash on ''fast'' drivers than Nur Links drivers...

In Poland you have something FAR more annoying, trucks overtaking each other for 2 minutes or longer at 81km/h. I have regularly seen fed up people overtake them on the hard shoulder due to the stupid slow truck overtaking.
Actually, lane discipline in the Netherlands is pretty good compared to some other European countries, including Germany. But not when it comes to switching lanes.
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Old August 7th, 2012, 05:10 PM   #7807
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Indeed. And sad thing it's very common practice by Dutch drivers... But it's also the reason that almost everyone driving no more 120 km/h. I agree with this here in NL, but please don't take this behavior outside the NL!
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Old August 7th, 2012, 05:15 PM   #7808
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mappero
Indeed. And sad thing it's very common practice by Dutch drivers... But it's also the reason that almost everyone driving no more 120 km/h. I agree with this here in NL, but please don't take this behavior outside the NL!
The Dutch do have a very bad name in Austria and Germany when it comes to driving. Something in their heads must be getting a fuse disturbance as soon as they cross that border, because they drive not that bad in their own country. With the Brits its the other way round. Very bad in the UK, ok when they're abroad.
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Old August 7th, 2012, 05:19 PM   #7809
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Germans are not exactly the best drivers in the Netherlands as well. They often drive far too slow.
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Old August 7th, 2012, 05:24 PM   #7810
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Edit: in response to Road_UK

You obviously do not know me (or sarcasm), and I am not even going to respond to your 'observations' about my driving style which you do not know.

The thing is that a lot of people here are annoyed by people who are staying in the left lane, but they are also annoyed by people who change to the right lane, but try to get back into the left lane to overtake a truck (which is inevitable).

When you have a lot of traffic, and a bunch of truck traffic, you ultimately get to the situation that there are people who want to go faster than capacity allows. Especially around trucks. I am usually the faster driver, but when I see someone driving 110km/h who is approaching a truck from behind, I give him space (without braking) to overtake the truck. This is to avoid the situation that the other car has to slow down to 80 km/h and tries to switch to the left lane at too slow a speed.

So imho, the people who stick to their 'right' to not give space to other people are actually causing more congestion than those who give others some space.

Again, of course people should not just throw their car in front of a faster car. But if you don't want them to stay in the left lane, you have to accept that they are eventually going to switch lanes to overtake a truck.

Last edited by woutero; August 7th, 2012 at 06:07 PM.
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Old August 7th, 2012, 05:29 PM   #7811
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Yeah Chris, you don't even know him.
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Old August 7th, 2012, 06:10 PM   #7812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle
Germans are not exactly the best drivers in the Netherlands as well. They often drive far too slow.
In Austria they are terrible!
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Old August 7th, 2012, 07:23 PM   #7813
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This debate about who is more important (that his time is more precious) is completely useless here (as the rational arguments are not used anyway) as I already discovered, but is fun... lol.

My rule here is that I keep to the traffic rules, safety, and preferring my time over time of other drivers as well preferring keeping my speed stable.

I move to the right only when I am finished with the overtaking or when I am sure that the car behind me would get over me before I would have to slow down because of the car in front of me. I will certainly not get myself stuck in between two trucks because of someone behind me having to drive 30 kms/h slower than he would do otherwise...

Same, when I see slow vehicle in front of me that I will have to overtake in like 20 sec and a vehicle approaching from behind that would get over me like in 20 sec or more I dont prefer giving that driver my precious time and I just start overtaking right away.

My dutch gf on the other side is able to put herself in between two trucks for almost anyone...

Last edited by Surel; August 7th, 2012 at 07:47 PM.
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Old August 7th, 2012, 07:35 PM   #7814
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What is a plus lane?

What is a "plus lane"? A question often heard. Plus lanes are unique to the Netherlands. No other country in the world uses it. Plus lanes are basically the same as regular shoulder running, a shoulder that is dynamically opened during peak traffic time. However, plus lanes are on the median side of the road. Plus lanes open if traffic volumes exceed 1,350 vehicles per lane per hour.


Plus lane along A1 between Apeldoorn and Deventer.

When shoulder running was first implemented in the Netherlands during early 1990s, there were concerns about safety, after all the shoulder would be utilized as a driving lane. While SOS niches were constructed, there were calls for left shoulders which could be turned into a driving lane if peak traffic required it, while preserving the shoulder.

During the 1990s, physical road widenings were politically incorrect, "more capacity" was almost a dirty word. However, with traffic congestion getting out of control, something needed to be done, and that is why they implemented shoulder running. The Netherlands was the first country in Europe that implemented shoulder running.

Plus lanes are constructed for various reasons. First of all, sometimes a full widening (3.25 - 3.50 meter wide lanes) was very expensive because of additional right-of-way needed. Several plus lanes were constructed within the existing right of way in some crowded areas. These are very narrow lanes of 2.50 meters wide, and often have an 80 km/h speed limit when opened. Examples are A27 south of Utrecht and A28 in Zwolle

Other plus lanes required a physical widening anyway, and were constructed wider, often 3.00 meters wide, allowing a speed limit of 100 km/h. These could easily be changed into a permanent driving lane. Examples are A1 near Apeldoorn, A12 near Ede and several other locations along A12.

Another consideration at the time was that plus lanes required slightly less phases within procedural planning, and were thus less prone to lenghty procedures and appeals. Before 2008, the average procedural time from start to construction was 11 years. It is now down to less than 3 years. Since 2008, it does not matter whether you construct a plus lane or a full lane. So the recently opened plus lanes along A12 are likely the last ones to be constructed, except on locations where a full widening is considered to expensive, such as along a part of A15 in the Port of Rotterdam area.

Another myth is that plus lanes are cheaper. They are not. They require a physical widening of the roadway that would require just as much time as a regular widening. The operational costs are higher than regular lanes due to active traffic management, and plus lanes are more expensive to build and operate during a lifecycle.

This is the most recent map of plus lanes and shoulder running in the Netherlands:
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Old August 7th, 2012, 08:06 PM   #7815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woutero View Post
If we can't expect that of other road users, everyone is just always going to stay in the left lane, which is what happens in Germany, and it results in everybody going slower than they want to and than is necessary.

I guess in NL we are more used to using the roads as efficiently as possible together, and not so focussed on 'I need to go faster'.
Are you serious? This is exactly what annoys me so much in the Netherlands, traffic massing up in the left lane because no one wants to move to the right.
I really can't figure out how you derive to the conclusion that in NL the drivers are more used to using the roads as efficiently as possible together, and not so focussed on 'I need to go faster'.
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Old August 7th, 2012, 08:28 PM   #7816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
What is a "plus lane"? (...)
Thanks! I get the same question a lot too, I will now be able to just link to this post
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Old August 7th, 2012, 08:58 PM   #7817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Actually, lane discipline in the Netherlands is pretty good compared to some other European countries, including Germany. But not when it comes to switching lanes.
That is what I said.
But, not always:



From about 10 sec.







You get the point.

I come across tens of cars like this every day in my short 20 minute motorway commute to work.

It's mostly in corners, somehow old grey haired farts do not pee off to the right in/before corners when they slow down significantly despite the corner being fine at vmax... They forget ''keep to the right'' and concentrate on not missing the corner at vmax minus 30, I just drive by on the right, too much stress to be held up behind these dinosaurs.

Last edited by snowdog; August 7th, 2012 at 09:03 PM.
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Old August 7th, 2012, 10:20 PM   #7818
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Hey Wouter I totally agree with you and often leave small gaps for others to merge into if they run into the danger of getting stuck behind a lorry while a veritable left-lane train of station wagons with housefathers is aching to get home in time for their boiled potatoes.
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Old August 7th, 2012, 10:25 PM   #7819
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Me too. I don't like this egotistic driving style of "I'm in the left lane and everyone should get the hell out of my way".
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Old August 7th, 2012, 10:33 PM   #7820
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Lane discipline in Europe seems much better than in the UK. It is amazing what 35km of water does for driving standards. Over in the UK most people drive in the lane second closest to the central reservation, using the lane closest to the central reservation for overtaking. Lane 1 is only used to a good extent by drivers either when the road is almost empty or when the road is almost at full capacity. For the majority of the time lane 1 handles the lowest traffic volumes, as it is considered to be the slow lane, not the driving lane. As a result of this culture, motorway widening is less effective. People will still drive as close to the central reservation as possible, and lorry drivers just get the benefit of having more lanes almost exclusively to themselves. If lane discipline were better there would not be as much congestion.

When I drive I use the two second rule. In the UK it is said that drivers should not drive less than two seconds behind the vehicle in front, to maintain a safe distance. By that same principle if I am more than two seconds behind the vehicle in front then I am not actively overtaking, and therefore I should not be in an overtaking lane in relation to them. Obviously you need to apply common sense, but I find if you generally apply the two second rule when it comes to lane discipline as well as safe distances that you are driving as the law intends and most importantly driving considerately.
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