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Old September 12th, 2012, 04:43 PM   #8121
Slagathor
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The Dutch vote today. What influence will the result of the elections have in road-related policies?
Impossible to tell. The biggest party will probably get some 40 seats out of 150 so a coalition is necessary.
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Old September 12th, 2012, 04:45 PM   #8122
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Isn't that usual there? (Needing a coalition because no one party gets a majority, I mean.)
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Old September 12th, 2012, 04:49 PM   #8123
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It's total rubbish, this whole idea. It would mean a whole new design of a city, with entire communities being removed. They don't need that sort of thing anyway, most Dutch people go on their bikes to town. And for those who don't, existing multi-storey car parks do the jobs just fine.
Where do you get your statistics from ? You are blatantly lying with ''most Dutch people''...

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Originally Posted by verreme View Post
The Dutch vote today. What influence will the result of the elections have in road-related policies?
afaik:
Greenleft, Party for animals, Labour party > Anti car, stop building new roads, invest in public transport, cash in more from motorists.
Socialists > Whine a bit about the environment but overall neutral towards new roads, not pro not against road construction, a bit pro public transport.
D66 ( left wing liberals) > Neutural, bureacracy and tax motorists per mile and cleaner cars are cheaper, they are not for new roads but also not against. Prefer public transport.
CDA ( mid party, christian democrats) > neutural
PVV ( xenophobe Wilders) & VVD ( right wing liberals) > Pro new roads and infrastructure.
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Old September 12th, 2012, 05:01 PM   #8124
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No lies at all. Holland has the highest amount of bicycle users in Europe. You only have to look around in the streets. I was just talking about people like you in the roadside rest area.
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Old September 12th, 2012, 05:18 PM   #8125
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The Council of State has rejected the appeals against the record of decision to widen A12 between Ede and Grijsoord motorway interchange to 2x3 lanes. This mean there are no more obstacles to commence construction on this highly saturated motorway.

This section of A12 opened in 1956 and carries 88.000 vehicles per day on 2x2 lanes. The road widening will commence later this year or early 2013 and will be completed in late 2014 or 2015.

Good news. Hopefully this section can be widened as quickly as the Utrecht - Ede section. Will it be regular 2x3, so no rush hour lane? That would fit perfectly on the part from Ede to Utrecht

Will the interchange of the A50 south with the A12 also be upgraded? Right now, it's a bottleneck, often with slow driving traffic for 3 or 4 kilometers, especially in the direction of Arnhem.

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The Zeewolde municipality published the zoning plan to upgrade the N305 to a 4-lane divided highway. It is currently a two-lane road with a speed limit of 100 km/h. The widened highway will not include grade-separation. The widening costs € 16.9 million and will be executed in 2013-2014.

It is phase I of a plan to widen the N305 from A27 to N302 to a divided highway.

Surprising. I rode there once, didn't seem to be that busy, and looking on the map, I can't really see the niche of this road.

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Rotterdam is just bigger:

- longer bridges over the rivers
- wider avenues with 2x2 lanes + wide sidewalks and bike paths
- a big river instead of a canal

It would be quite easy for Rotterdam to speed up urban traffic along 3 ridiculously 50km/h limited boulevards (increasing to 70 and building underpasses (= no visual intrusion at street level) to speed up access from A15 (south), A20 and A16

Some sectors that go through industrial areas could well do with elevated expressways.

But the Dutch city that lacks fast urban arteries most and a ring road is Apeldoorn. Groningen is not bad but they should carve more car lanes on its inner ring road and do like Maastricht (big underground garage in the central square).
I agree with you about creating more underpasses and arteries in the Netherlands in general. One thing that annoys me in city traffic are the many grade level crossings with traffic lights between a major road and a simple side street. I understand sometimes there is no room (don't worry, I'm not in favour of knocking over everything to arrive at your now knocked over destination 2 minutes earlier) and in the Netherlands it is costly to build underpasses due to the weak soil, but in other countries, traffic flow is often a lot better.

I don't agree with you on Apeldoorn. While it may seem to be a big city, it is very spread out and the lack of suburbs mean there is relatively little inner city traffic. Most businesses and other industrial activity is located near the A1 or A50 highway in the south or east as well. Simply not worth the effort to do anything more than to create a few grade-separated railway crossings.
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Old September 12th, 2012, 06:32 PM   #8126
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A2/A76 Interchange Kerensheide

Newly completed Kerensheide Motorway Interchange Flyover.

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Old September 12th, 2012, 07:08 PM   #8127
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Yes but these days it's extreme even by our standards. The traditionally big parties used to score some 50 or 60 seats but these days they score 30 to 40 seats. That means more parties are needed to reach a majority and the more parties and flavors you add to a coalition, the more unpredictable and unstable it becomes.
It has happened only 4 times in our parliamentary history that a party had more than 50 seats (last time was in 1989, which was also the highest ever, at 54 seats), and a coalition has always been necessary. I don't think it is that much different now. There is more fragmentation due to lots of smaller parties. Today we had 21 parties to choose from, making the ballot the size of a large poster (probably about A1-size).

Transportation was not a particularly important issue in these elections. I think it is clear that we will not see too many new large transportation projects starting in the next years. Only a new system of per-km taxation/congestion pricing might be back on the table, depending on the outcome.
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Old September 12th, 2012, 07:20 PM   #8128
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Only a new system of per-km taxation/congestion pricing might be back on the table, depending on the outcome.
Such a system will be an incredible blow to commuters, potentially reducing their purchasing power by thousands of euros annually. As could be expected, GreenLeft had the most expensive form of km taxation, at € 0.28 per kilometer during rush hour. A Utrecht - Amsterdam commuter would have to pay about € 5000 per year according to those plans, just for commuting to and from work alone.

Politicians fail to understand that such a scheme is 1) extremely complex to implement 2) a very high risk for the tax payer and 3) has very high operational costs.

Most political parties who want to implement the kilometer taxation want to 1) increase tax revenue and 2) reduce the infrastructure fund. So even before all risks and operational costs are taken into account, it will cost people more, and results in less investment.

The kilometer taxation has a high risk of cost overruns, as is the case with virtually any large IT project. Furthermore, systems like these have operational costs that are typically between 10 and 20% of the revenue. In this case, we're talking about billions, not millions. This means driving will become more expensive even if tax revenue would remain the same for the government.

There is no logic in implementing a kilometer tax. It is a far more expensive system to operate, will hit the tax payers hardest, reduce people's purchasing power and will not do anything to reduce congestion unless a GL-like system is implemented where it simply becomes too expensive to go to work.
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Old September 12th, 2012, 07:46 PM   #8129
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Such a system will be an incredible blow to commuters, potentially reducing their purchasing power by thousands of euros annually. As could be expected, GreenLeft had the most expensive form of km taxation, at € 0.28 per kilometer during rush hour. A Utrecht - Amsterdam commuter would have to pay about € 5000 per year according to those plans, just for commuting to and from work alone.

Politicians fail to understand that such a scheme is 1) extremely complex to implement 2) a very high risk for the tax payer and 3) has very high operational costs.

Most political parties who want to implement the kilometer taxation want to 1) increase tax revenue and 2) reduce the infrastructure fund. So even before all risks and operational costs are taken into account, it will cost people more, and results in less investment.

The kilometer taxation has a high risk of cost overruns, as is the case with virtually any large IT project. Furthermore, systems like these have operational costs that are typically between 10 and 20% of the revenue. In this case, we're talking about billions, not millions. This means driving will become more expensive even if tax revenue would remain the same for the government.

There is no logic in implementing a kilometer tax. It is a far more expensive system to operate, will hit the tax payers hardest, reduce people's purchasing power and will not do anything to reduce congestion unless a GL-like system is implemented where it simply becomes too expensive to go to work.
Exactly. I've never understood their reasoning, as it is quite clear from the petrol price / car usage relationship that people will continue to use their car, no matter what. Which means people will only start to drive less when they cannot afford it anymore. So which people will be the first ones to drop out? People with the smallest disposable income, exactly the people "the left" says they are representing.

Using the train is no option either. Although connections between Amsterdam and Utrecht are excellent, the network is running at capacity already (well, frequency can be increased a bit I guess, but more than once every 10 minutes is simply not feasible due to lack of station space, so effectively the maximum increase in train capacity is 33%).

Their argument is that people should move to their place of work. I think in general that's a good idea, but a political party shouldn't force it by outpricing the people they represent. Moreover, the house market is in a bad spot as well.

The most straightforward way to introduce per km tax (or increase it, rather) is to increase VAT or extra tax on petrol. I'm not in favor of it, but it is infinitely easier and cheaper to implement than one of their schemes.
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Old September 13th, 2012, 01:40 PM   #8130
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N31 - A31 Zurich - Harlingen - Leeuwarden

Video #3 from last weeks trip.

This video follows N31 and A31 from the Zurich motorway interchange through Harlingen to Leeuwarden. The scenery is mainly open terrain. It also shows the to-be-upgraded two-lane section in Harlingen.

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Old September 13th, 2012, 03:04 PM   #8131
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Old September 13th, 2012, 03:21 PM   #8132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Look:

I know my cities and I know my roads. I know my way around Rotterdam, as well as Amsterdam, London, Birmingham, Milan, Barcelona and Paris. Rotterdam is just not a very pretty city. Brown brick deprived neighbourhoods, I can't think of a uglier unpersonal city centre shopping area then De Lijbaan, especially if you compare it with de Kalverstraat or Oxford Street, and my taste doesn't lie anywhere near Dutch post-war architecture. Neighbouring Schiedam has a nice old town centre, but the area around it is just as ugly and deprived as the rest of the Rotterdam metropolitan area. I drove to central Rotterdam last March from my cosy mountains to visit my uncle who was in a hospice on the Binnenweg, can't remember nieuw or oud, drove over the Matenesseweg, and instantly missing anywhere else, far away from that shithole. Especially my mountains where I live now, but also nice old city centres of places that I do like. I take it you are from Rotterdam, and you are proud of your city. That's very nice, but it's just not my thing. And no, I do not go on about it, I think I may have mentioned it somewhere a long time ago. I am sorry if I have hurt your feelings, but on a forum I think I'm entitled to speak out what I like or don't like. I am born there, but raised mainly in Amsterdam and Friesland, before moving to the UK a long time ago and now living in Austria but still partly working for a UK company. Still show my face in Rotterdam once in a whole, and I think its overall a very ugly deprived city, with a terrible dialect and to me it has the same status a Liverpool, another shithole. They say that the Wibautstraat in Amsterdam is the ugliest street in NL. Possibly, but het Oude Noorden and all the rest is nothing to write home about.
Those are things I filter out when I look at cities, I just see this:

image hosted on flickr



Every city has a ****hole... I look at the overall look of a city from far. Those ''brown brick'' neighborhoods area's you have nothing to look for if you don't live there...

Last edited by snowdog; September 13th, 2012 at 03:35 PM.
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Old September 13th, 2012, 04:01 PM   #8133
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Those are things I filter out when I look at cities, I just see this:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8299/7...2e752d74_b.jpg
https://kuqcqw.sn2.livefilestore.com...29s.jpg?psid=1

Every city has a ****hole... I look at the overall look of a city from far. Those ''brown brick'' neighborhoods area's you have nothing to look for if you don't live there...
Is that Rotterdam?
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Last edited by ChrisZwolle; September 13th, 2012 at 05:59 PM.
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Old September 13th, 2012, 04:11 PM   #8134
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Is that Rotterdam?
First one is Rotterdam, second one is The Hague.
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Old September 13th, 2012, 04:17 PM   #8135
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Oh, so that's the sea in the background.
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Old September 15th, 2012, 01:53 PM   #8136
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A5, Amsterdam

The A5 elevated motorway in western Amsterdam that will open in early 2013.

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Old September 15th, 2012, 02:33 PM   #8137
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N46, Groningen

A somewhat underrated project is the grade-separation of the N46 in eastern Groningen, a large city in northern Netherlands. The N46 is currently a four-lane divided highway, like many ring roads, but is partially grade-separated. Works are underway to turn the whole N46 into an expressway.



Four intersections will be grade-separated. From south to north:







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Old September 15th, 2012, 02:48 PM   #8138
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What is the A15 like coming from Germany to Rotterdam? I have to do a overnight drive to Rotterdam from Austria, then head on to Sneek for a day or two, before going back to Mayrhofen again. I intend to use A57 in Germany, go around Nijmegen, and use A15 towards the Benelux tunnel.
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Old September 15th, 2012, 03:12 PM   #8139
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Such a system will be an incredible blow to commuters, potentially reducing their purchasing power by thousands of euros annually. As could be expected, GreenLeft had the most expensive form of km taxation, at € 0.28 per kilometer during rush hour. A Utrecht - Amsterdam commuter would have to pay about € 5000 per year according to those plans, just for commuting to and from work alone.

Politicians fail to understand that such a scheme is 1) extremely complex to implement 2) a very high risk for the tax payer and 3) has very high operational costs.

Most political parties who want to implement the kilometer taxation want to 1) increase tax revenue and 2) reduce the infrastructure fund. So even before all risks and operational costs are taken into account, it will cost people more, and results in less investment.

The kilometer taxation has a high risk of cost overruns, as is the case with virtually any large IT project. Furthermore, systems like these have operational costs that are typically between 10 and 20% of the revenue. In this case, we're talking about billions, not millions. This means driving will become more expensive even if tax revenue would remain the same for the government.

There is no logic in implementing a kilometer tax. It is a far more expensive system to operate, will hit the tax payers hardest, reduce people's purchasing power and will not do anything to reduce congestion unless a GL-like system is implemented where it simply becomes too expensive to go to work.
Indeed.

If they want to get more resources they can just increase the taxes on the fuel. Much more effective.

If they want to improve enviroment and transportation and they want to spend lots of money. They should start to think about new intelligent traffic designs and the concept of public-private transport based on self driven units and intelligent grid traffic. It would be possible to begin this and the resorces would be much better used than in building the tariffing infrastructure.
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Old September 16th, 2012, 04:42 AM   #8140
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What is the A15 like coming from Germany to Rotterdam? I have to do a overnight drive to Rotterdam from Austria, then head on to Sneek for a day or two, before going back to Mayrhofen again. I intend to use A57 in Germany, go around Nijmegen, and use A15 towards the Benelux tunnel.
At night?
No problems at all, a bit of truck traffic but fine.

Think there are roadworks going on between Kesteren&Tiel, might cost you an extra 10-20 mins at worst if a small hold up appears... After that should be an easy ride.
And the A50 with the new bridge construction.

I wouldn't expect much problems expect a lower speed limit near the roadworks, from Tiel>Rotterdam you're clear to go.
So A50 near the bridge and the A15 around Tiel might have lower speed limits, but that aside, you should be fine at night.

Last edited by snowdog; September 16th, 2012 at 04:53 AM.
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