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Old November 9th, 2012, 02:30 PM   #8401
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Maybe its because you're living in Austria?
Before that in the UK, and still driving in both countries continuously. I have passed my driving test in the Netherlands.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 02:33 PM   #8402
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The reason why the police "judgment" may be tolerable is because you might presume it is not corruptible. As long as the police officers judgment follows only the justice reasoning its tolerable, however, once it would follow either personal profit, laziness, or corrupt offers it would be deemed unfit. There are also racial and servitude issues involved when speaking about freedom of police judgment.

What I make of that behavior is that the policemen most often just don't want to be bothered.
Good. Laziness is good. Laziness is something I understand

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So I did very stupid stopping and letting the Dutch police fine me, TWICE!!... And I wondered why all the others are just passing by...
Huge mistake.

What did you get fined for?
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Old November 9th, 2012, 02:40 PM   #8403
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Only if you think "civilized" is a synonym for "servitude" to whichever uniform happens to cross your path.

Every society needs a healthy dose of live-and-let-live, certainly one as densely populated as the Netherlands. So long as the laisser-faire attitude doesn't extend to matters of corruption and serious crime, civilization is not on the brink of collapse.
Laws are there for a reason, even if it can be difficult to pinpoint which reason at first. Laws and regulations are there to be enforced and respected, not to be treated with "let's see if that law suits me, otherwise I'll just ignore it" attitude. There will be chaos otherwise.

Just my opinion.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 02:52 PM   #8404
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Good. Laziness is good. Laziness is something I understand



Huge mistake.

What did you get fined for?
Yeah, it may be. But when you witness two guys seriously beating a third guy out of the blue in the middle of a day in the center of a city when taking your visting brother with his family and two little kids out, you would expect some action from the police when you call them. But I know, that is the same everywhere...

Once it was malfunction on the rear light. Second time the red light somewhere around here. But it was honest mistake I really did not see the red light. It was either hidden behind something or it wasn't red . Anyway the smallest street and no cars around.

But both cases, it was some police safety action, thus no lazy policemen around :/.

PS: when you look from here, there is a summer picture and you can see the bunch of flowers in a pot that covered my view on the red light (it really did)

Here it is clearly seen.

Last edited by Surel; November 9th, 2012 at 03:02 PM. Reason: PS
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Old November 9th, 2012, 03:03 PM   #8405
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Laws are there for a reason, even if it can be difficult to pinpoint which reason at first. Laws and regulations are there to be enforced and respected, not to be treated with "let's see if that law suits me, otherwise I'll just ignore it" attitude. There will be chaos otherwise.

Just my opinion.
Chaos? You mean like on the Italian roads?
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Old November 9th, 2012, 03:08 PM   #8406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Laws are there for a reason, even if it can be difficult to pinpoint which reason at first. Laws and regulations are there to be enforced and respected, not to be treated with "let's see if that law suits me, otherwise I'll just ignore it" attitude. There will be chaos otherwise.

Just my opinion.
Laws are an expression of a society's cultural morals and values. Laws that go against the cultural nature of a civilization cannot work.

Which is why the EU is such a struggle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
Yeah, it may be. But when you witness two guys seriously beating a third guy out of the blue in the middle of a day in the center of a city when taking your visting brother with his family and two little kids out, you would expect some action from the police when you call them. But I know, that is the same everywhere...

Once it was malfunction on the rear light. Second time the red light somewhere around here. But it was honest mistake I really did not see the red light. It was either hidden behind something or it wasn't red . Anyway the smallest street and no cars around.

But both cases, it was some police safety action, thus no lazy policemen around :/.

PS: when you look from here, there is a summer picture and you can see the bunch of flowers in a pot that covered my view on the red light (it really did)

Here it is clearly seen.
Bicycle lights, I have many stories to tell on that front. We would cycle to high school (7km one-way) during dark winter mornings and there were always a few kids without functioning lights. Luckily when you're in a group of 10+ cyclists, there are ways to compensate. The kids without lights would cycle on the inside, in the middle of the pack, surrounded by kids with lights. Police officers would look away then.

But if you cycled on your own without a light, a fine was always coming your way.

It's better now with the battery charged clip-on, clip-off lights. But back in the '90s we had those dynamo powered fixed lights and either a wire would be broken or the dynamo would slip on tires wet with rain water or the little light bulb would break. Very high maintenance, that system. A total nightmare. Takes you ages just to figure out where the problem exactly is and even when you find it, there's no guarantee you can fix it.

Oh, and those flowers are evil.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 03:11 PM   #8407
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Laws are an expression of a society's cultural morals and values. Laws that go against the cultural nature of a civilization cannot work.

Which is why the EU is such a struggle.


I could not agree more.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 03:13 PM   #8408
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Oh, and those flowers are evil.
I think it was a spot for some easy fining, having the quota done fast for a day.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 03:17 PM   #8409
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Chaos? You mean like on the Italian roads?
Exactly. I never said Italy is civilized. As a matter of fact, it's not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
Laws are an expression of a society's cultural morals and values. Laws that go against the cultural nature of a civilization cannot work.

Which is why the EU is such a struggle.
Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Mine is way different.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 03:21 PM   #8410
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Exactly. I never said Italy is civilized. As a matter of fact, it's not.




.
It is. But just in a different way, with a different identity, and different values. Hence the EU-struggle comment.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 03:25 PM   #8411
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It is. But just in a different way, with a different identity, and different values. Hence the EU-struggle comment.
Depends on what you define as civilized of course.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 03:33 PM   #8412
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Depends on what you define as civilized of course.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
Only if you think "civilized" is a synonym for "servitude" to whichever uniform happens to cross your path.

Every society needs a healthy dose of live-and-let-live, certainly one as densely populated as the Netherlands. So long as the laisser-faire attitude doesn't extend to matters of corruption and serious crime, civilization is not on the brink of collapse.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 05:02 PM   #8413
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Then I think I judged the Netherlands more civilized than they really are.
Do you (and everyone in Italy, for that matter) consistently obey speed limits? Would you consider yourself or your country uncivilized if you, or they, don't?

EDIT: Posted before I read your post number 8409.
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Last edited by Penn's Woods; November 9th, 2012 at 05:09 PM.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 05:03 PM   #8414
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Love it! I don't know if I will ever live in the Netherlands again, but hearing stories like these makes me proud to be a bearer of a Dutch passport!
Hup, Holland, Hup! Oranje boven! And all that.

(Ignore me; in a silly mood.)
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Old November 9th, 2012, 05:09 PM   #8415
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Do you (and everyone in Italy, for that matter) consistently obey speed limits? Would you consider yourself or your country uncivilized if you, or they, don't?
I try to obey all rules, in spite of the fact that nobody in Italy does, or maybe just for that reason. I don't want to succumb to everyone else's bad behaviors.
And yes, I consider my country uncivilized in many ways. Read " The Moral Basis of a Backward Society" by E.C. Banfield and you'll probably get a glimpse of what I mean.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 06:34 PM   #8416
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Dutch people make 4,5 billion bike rides per year, which is 300 per inhabitant.
This adds up to 15 billion km, or 900 km per inhabitant.

Any change in regulations as to how this is done will be seen as very important to the Dutch. You will never get a fashionable Dutch lady who is going shopping, going out, or going to work to (1) mess up her hair, (2) carry around a helmet. It is just not going to happen. Any political party who will propose this will commit political suicide.

The rise of injuries among elderly probably has something to do with the fact that we are getting more and more elderly, and for pensioners, cycling is one of the most popular pass times. Many now also have e-bikes, which increase their average speed from about 15 to 25 km/h.

All in all I think the cost of these injuries is probably lower than the cost of people not getting on their bikes because of helmet laws and getting fat.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 06:40 PM   #8417
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Dutch people make 4,5 billion bike rides per year, which is 300 per inhabitant.
This adds up to 15 billion km, or 900 km per inhabitant.
In fact, the Dutch travel more distance by bicycle than by train.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 08:41 PM   #8418
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Can I just say that these posts on cycling, in a road subforum mind, have been some of the most thoughtful and well-composed on these entire forums ever.

Thanks guys
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Old November 9th, 2012, 09:34 PM   #8419
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Some of the anti-helmet arguments mimic those that were written against seat belt laws in the 1970s and sometimes early 1980s.

Many argued that mandatory seat belts would make drivers behave more irresponsible since they would fell "like race car drivers" with straps and so on.

Straw man arguments like "what if the car catches fire / slip on a deep river and the passengers can't free themselves" abounded at the time, from what I read about the issue. While a very low number of incidents in which wearing a seat belt probably killed some crash victims by drowning or burning, the number of people who are not only alive, but relatively unscratched after collisions due to seat belts is much larger.

Bogus science such that arguing a body being projected outside the vehicle onto the ground/grass/pavement was better than being restrained inside the car circulated as well, despite trauma science at the time being already quite well established on the absurdity of the argument.

When I hear anti-helmet arguments for cyclists, it seems it is the same thing all over again. Helmets do make bike accidents, the majority of which (in the NEtherlands) do not involve a moving motorized vehicle, less harmful to body.

What I think would take care of the issue is demanding cyclists have insurance that cover the costs of their crashes/accidents, like car drivers must have insurance against damage caused to other vehicles and people involved in the accident. With mandatory insurance, or a hefty fine to be charged (to cyclists of their parents if minors), the push to make cycling safer with helmet laws, and maybe padding laws, would gain momentum.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 09:35 PM   #8420
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Any change in regulations as to how this is done will be seen as very important to the Dutch. You will never get a fashionable Dutch lady who is going shopping, going out, or going to work to (1) mess up her hair, (2) carry around a helmet. It is just not going to happen. Any political party who will propose this will commit political suicide.
So the lady will be fined and next time she will think about what's more important, having her hair done or her wallet full.

They said the same thing about seatbelts and helmet for mopeds which, at least in Italy, weren't mandatory for people over 18 until some years ago, or the smoking ban in bars and restaurant. "People will never leave the table in the middle of a dinner to go outside and smoke."

They'll do, or be fined. Their choice.

EDIT: Suburbanist was first, saying more or less the same I did.
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