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Old December 15th, 2012, 11:24 PM   #8641
Sunfuns
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Cycling has an additional public health benefit of keeping people more fit and reducing obesity. I'm all for it whenever feasible. Netherlands is a perfect location for it (flat, rarely too hot or too cold), but we here is Switzerland also cycle quite a bit.

As for statistical discussion above I think measuring car/public transport share as % of trips makes more sense than measuring passenger kilometers. The latter method tends to give some very skewed results in cities.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 11:39 PM   #8642
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It depends what you count as a "trip". Usually the share of walking is very high, but it's a bit too far to include it in general transporatation if you're talking about posting a letter or walking your dog for a few hundred meters.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 11:45 PM   #8643
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Toll roads in the Netherlands

I made a little map showing current and future toll roads in the Netherlands.

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Old December 15th, 2012, 11:55 PM   #8644
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It depends what you count as a "trip". Usually the share of walking is very high, but it's a bit too far to include it in general transporatation if you're talking about posting a letter or walking your dog for a few hundred meters.
Sure, but I meant mostly for commuting to work and back. One could hardly walk a dog with a car

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Old December 16th, 2012, 12:07 AM   #8645
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One could hardly walk a dog with a car
Americans can
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Old December 16th, 2012, 12:47 AM   #8646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
One could hardly walk a dog with a car
Sorry to continue this OT, but: Don't underestimate laziness of some people, we've seen such cases already:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIxLkAmmArY
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Old December 16th, 2012, 04:07 AM   #8647
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
As for statistical discussion above I think measuring car/public transport share as % of trips makes more sense than measuring passenger kilometers. The latter method tends to give some very skewed results in cities.
Are you advocating "cooking the numbers" just to fit nicely into a model you want validated? That would get you (or anyone else) hammered in a scientific conference in transport, for instance.

Measuring a share of trips or measuring a share of km-passenger are not aiming at capturing the same underlying phenomenon. For that to occur, you'd have to assume all modes of transportation are interchangeable for all trips (e.g., it is feasible to walk, cycle, drive a car, ride a train or use an airplane for every trip you are taking).

Since they are not, you can't advocate to use one or other measure as "better" regardless of what are you trying to analyse.

Passenger-kilometer is an accurate measure when you are comparing the density (mathematical sense) of some hypothetical function that describes how a certain vector of Origin-Destination is going to be "solved" (the coefficients being something like propensity to chose mode a/b/c/d holding everything else the same).

Measuring share of all trips doesn't inform the reader on the length effects over mode choice. 10 walking trips of 400m each will count more than one 11000km air trip (to keep an extreme example).

When you are analyzing some phenomenon (say, commute), you need to hold exogenous variables the same. It is a basic principle of interpreting the practical meaning of statistics (and of experimentation for that matter). Since length of a trip is not an exogenous factor in regard of mode split, using count share is essentially introducing a lot of noise and non-random component on the error term in your model, to speak in semi-technical lingo.

Urban planners, however, sometimes out of naivity, sometimes out of pure data manipulation, like to dismiss passenger-kilometer as a valid metric (in other words, they like to remove trip length as an exogenous factor) because they want to "flatten" their analysis considering all trips the same regardless of distance (a proposition that doesn't hold things the same, but fits well their implication that the shorter trips are, the better because it implies people are living in a more compact city).

That could even be the case if people had feasible choices or deciding whether to take an airplane to the gym 1km away, or whether to walk and swim over the ocean for an overseas family holiday. Even if you only consider home-work-home trips, there isn't a perfect overlap: bicycle use, for instance, even in a context of dedicated infrastructure, is severely constrained by topography and weather. Very few people will use cars for a 200m commute. All major contemporary forms of "transit" are subject to severe network geometry and scale constraints that will make them useless for a number of paired work-home relation in any given area.

This logical flaw would be the same as, for instance, some hospital system measuring costs of treatment of patients on a per-patient basis, ignoring their length of stay in a hospital bed, thus making a hospital that performs mostly elective eye surgery or aesthetic body implants look much more efficient than a maternity specialized in pre-term babies that stay there, each one, for weeks instead of days.
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Last edited by Suburbanist; December 16th, 2012 at 04:19 AM.
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Old December 16th, 2012, 04:47 AM   #8648
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Are you advocating "cooking the numbers" just to fit nicely into a model you want validated? That would get you (or anyone else) hammered in a scientific conference in transport, for instance.

Measuring a share of trips or measuring a share of km-passenger are not aiming at capturing the same underlying phenomenon. For that to occur, you'd have to assume all modes of transportation are interchangeable for all trips (e.g., it is feasible to walk, cycle, drive a car, ride a train or use an airplane for every trip you are taking).

Since they are not, you can't advocate to use one or other measure as "better" regardless of what are you trying to analyse.

Passenger-kilometer is an accurate measure when you are comparing the density (mathematical sense) of some hypothetical function that describes how a certain vector of Origin-Destination is going to be "solved" (the coefficients being something like propensity to chose mode a/b/c/d holding everything else the same).

Measuring share of all trips doesn't inform the reader on the length effects over mode choice. 10 walking trips of 400m each will count more than one 11000km air trip (to keep an extreme example).

When you are analyzing some phenomenon (say, commute), you need to hold exogenous variables the same. It is a basic principle of interpreting the practical meaning of statistics (and of experimentation for that matter). Since length of a trip is not an exogenous factor in regard of mode split, using count share is essentially introducing a lot of noise and non-random component on the error term in your model, to speak in semi-technical lingo.

Urban planners, however, sometimes out of naivity, sometimes out of pure data manipulation, like to dismiss passenger-kilometer as a valid metric (in other words, they like to remove trip length as an exogenous factor) because they want to "flatten" their analysis considering all trips the same regardless of distance (a proposition that doesn't hold things the same, but fits well their implication that the shorter trips are, the better because it implies people are living in a more compact city).

This logical flaw would be the same as, for instance, some hospital system measuring costs of treatment of patients on a per-patient basis, ignoring their length of stay in a hospital bed, thus making a hospital that performs mostly elective eye surgery or aesthetic body implants look much more efficient than a maternity specialized in pre-term babies that stay there, each one, for weeks instead of days.


Ok, a more elaborate answer. The method I advocated is better then looking for a certain kind of information (passenger kilometers might well be preferable for something else). In this case I was interested into looking how people living in a city commute to work.

Just to illustrate let's do a small thought experiment. Imagine that in a certain company in a midsize city with a good public transport there are 100 employees with the following ways of commuting to work: 15 of them live so close that they walk to work (average distance 750 m), 10 cycle (average distance 2.5 km), 20 use a tram or a city bus (3 km), 20 use suburban trains (15 km), 35 drive (25 km).

If we look it as a share of trips it's all very easy - 25% walk or cycle, 40% use public transport and 35% drive. How about share of passengers kilometers? It's slightly more complicated, but still trivial to compute that the entire distance covered by those 100 people is 1271.25 km of which driving is 69%, public transport 28% and cycling/walking 3%.

In my opinion the first method gives a more honest picture of commuting patterns. Also notice that passenger kilometers are highly susceptible to statistical outliers. I assumed 25 km average for those who drive, but what about if there are 3 crazy guys who drive 120 km every day? Suddenly a share for driving "magically" jumps by about 5%. Those 5% don't really mean anything for town planners.
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Old December 16th, 2012, 04:48 AM   #8649
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Quote:
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I made a little map showing current and future toll roads in the Netherlands.

Fantastic map, but I thought these were no-tolled.
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Old December 16th, 2012, 12:26 PM   #8650
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Quote:
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Fantastic map, but I thought these were no-tolled.
Grey being Un-Tolled?
Only 2/5 red links have been build yet, these are tolled links
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Old December 16th, 2012, 01:32 PM   #8651
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Grey being Un-Tolled?
Yes!

Oh, and to add to Chris' list, but impossible to put on the map. The Tolled bridge Nieuwerbrug in (how original ) Nieuwerbrug where someone actually still has to open the gate for you.
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Old December 16th, 2012, 03:30 PM   #8652
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Why is the Killtunnel tolled by the way? I would be really annoyed by that if I lived in 's Gravendeel and had to commute to Dordrecht. There's no valid alternative.
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Old December 16th, 2012, 03:35 PM   #8653
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I believe they wanted to construct a toll-free tunnel in the late 1960s, similar to the 1968 Heinenoord Tunnel. However, there was a widening of the "Dordtsche Kil" waterway planned, which made the plans more expensive, so they went for a toll tunnel.

The Kil Tunnel opened on the exact same day as the nearby 4-tube Drecht Tunnel in Dordrecht by the way. The Kil Tunnel becomes toll free if there is an incident in the Drecht Tunnel. Traffic is then detoured via A29 and Kil Tunnel.
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Old December 17th, 2012, 01:52 PM   #8654
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E312 is nowhere near Zwolle!

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E312 Zwolle by Chriszwolle, on Flickr
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Old December 17th, 2012, 02:01 PM   #8655
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A28 Amersfoort turns 50 years

Today it's exactly 50 years ago the first part of the A28 motorway opened to traffic. An 8 kilometer section opened around the city of Amersfoort on 17 December 1962.




photos: Beeldbank Rijkswaterstaat

Frequent readers of this thread know this is currently one of the most congested roadways in the Netherlands and is currently being widened with "plus lanes".
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Old December 17th, 2012, 06:37 PM   #8656
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A28 Amersfoort - Utrecht

The third lane between Amersfoort and Utrecht finally opens to traffic tonight. The lane was completed since early summer, but procedures for widening were not completed yet (the widening was executed under the umbrella of "maintenance").

There is now 15 kilometers of 3 lanes from the Maarn exit to the Rijnsweerd motorway interchange, westbound only. The 3rd lane from Rijnsweerd to Maarn (eastbound) will open in mid-January after works at the Zeist noise awning are completed.

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A28 Soesterberg 30-06-2012-5 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr
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Old December 17th, 2012, 07:06 PM   #8657
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A2 's-Hertogenbosch

How a road can change in 10 years...

Prior to 2002, the A2 around 's-Hertogenbosch (Den Bosch) had 2x2 lanes. It was widened to 2x3 lanes in 2002 and 4x2 lanes in 2009.

pre-2002:


2009:
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Old December 17th, 2012, 08:27 PM   #8658
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I like this kind of your photos, a lot of lanes for twenty cars ;-)
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Old December 17th, 2012, 08:34 PM   #8659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
2009:
How does that work? Are there signs separating through traffic from local one, before the motorway splits? Are motorways completely independent?
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Old December 17th, 2012, 08:39 PM   #8660
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How does that work? Are there signs separating through traffic from local one, before the motorway splits? Are motorways completely independent?
Yes.

It. They split 2+2+2+2 sector is around 7km long.

"Local" lanes cater for A59 (East and West) interchanges and two local junctions. Central lanes are through.

In Eindhoven they have a similar setup, but the segregated sector is much longer and they call the collector/local lanes "N2" (central through lanes: "A2").
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