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Old December 23rd, 2012, 01:38 PM   #8701
Wilhem275
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One of my hobbies is to wander on GMaps in sat view and follow road and rail paths, to trace their evolution in history.
In railways this is nicely integrated by cab-view videos.

First time I "arrived" in Abcoude, it was through a video of a train going to Amsterdam; then I asked myself what kind of important infrastructure could be lying over such a short underpass.
Then I looked on the map and the only thing that came to my mind was "WHY THE HELL?"

Seriously, I admire the Dutch way of building infrastructure and managing the land, always with extremely well integrated and clean designs, but in the Abcoude case you people should hang who decided to build that
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 02:08 PM   #8702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
One of my hobbies is to wander on GMaps in sat view and follow road and rail paths, to trace their evolution in history.
In railways this is nicely integrated by cab-view videos.

First time I "arrived" in Abcoude, it was through a video of a train going to Amsterdam; then I asked myself what kind of important infrastructure could be lying over such a short underpass.
Then I looked on the map and the only thing that came to my mind was "WHY THE HELL?"

Seriously, I admire the Dutch way of building infrastructure and managing the land, always with extremely well integrated and clean designs, but in the Abcoude case you people should hang who decided to build that
There's a very real danger of overdoing it. There are more examples like this. The new High speed rail line between Amsterdam and Rotterdam for example: there is a massive tunnel between Leiden and Hazerswoude-dorp, to not destroy the countryside and some birds, while later on the line literally travels through the backyards of Berkel en Rodenrijs and Bergschenhoek.

Another example is the Betuwelijn, a freight railway between Rotterdam and Germany. The rail joins the existing line east of Arnhem, after travelling underground south of Arnhem, with tunnels underneath the rivers to not spoil the views in the countryside. Now, 10 years later, a new motorway will be build alongside the Betuwelijn (between Bemmel and Zevenaar). A tunnel is too expensive, so they will build a bridge next to the tunnel of the Betuwelijn, "spoiling" the view after all. That's the problem with these sophisticated solutions: it's often not sustainable and slows down infrastructure projects massively.

Question: were those massive projects of the late 90s made possible because of the absolute lack of investments in motorways during that period?
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 02:13 PM   #8703
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The 1990s policy (already starting in the late 1970s) was that transportation policy should be done in a way so that everything should shift to public transport. Several megaprojects were funded during this time, like the high-speed rail, Betuwe freight railway and some local rail transport.

However, no such shift was ever recorded, in fact the car gained a larger share in the modal split during the 1990s. All this money did not reach its goal of getting people from cars into public transport and reducing car traffic or even the share of road traffic. Public transport boomed in the 1990s though, especially after they introduced unlimited free travel for students, which currently account for about 35 - 40% of all public transport mileage.

It wasn't until the early to mid-2000s that some realism got back into politics, especially with traffic congestion increasing by 10% annually for two decades in a row. However, several road projects were designed in the 1990s but are only currently executed, which means some still have a substandard design such as A4 at the southern side of Leiden with its weird local-express setup and the lack of capacity on the A4 Delft - Schiedam link.

The 1990s were not completely devoid of road projects though. Though large-scale capacity expansion did not occur (mostly shoulder running), they for instance did replace several large bridges in A2.
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 02:16 PM   #8704
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There's a very real danger of overdoing it. There are more examples like this. The new High speed rail line between Amsterdam and Rotterdam for example: there is a massive tunnel between Leiden and Hazerswoude-dorp, to not destroy the countryside and some birds, while later on the line literally travels through the backyards of Berkel en Rodenrijs and Bergschenhoek.

Another example is the Betuwelijn, a freight railway between Rotterdam and Germany. The rail joins the existing line east of Arnhem, after travelling underground south of Arnhem, with tunnels underneath the rivers to not spoil the views in the countryside. Now, 10 years later, a new motorway will be build alongside the Betuwelijn (between Bemmel and Zevenaar). A tunnel is too expensive, so they will build a bridge next to the tunnel of the Betuwelijn, "spoiling" the view after all. That's the problem with these sophisticated solutions: it's often not sustainable and slows down infrastructure projects massively.
The first example annoys me as much as anything, how can you put birds and farmland above people, absolute waste of money and the people responsible should be locked up... Criminals wasting tax-payers money on protecting a rural area above people areas, morons...

Seconds example, the Betuweroute, also overkill, they don't seem too worried about ''spoiling the view'' when placing a bunch of ugly windmills, so why for placing a nice bridge ?
Should have built the Betuweroute with a cheaper option, the bridge, in the first place!
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 02:18 PM   #8705
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I'm very happy now that there is a Betuwelijn though, that piece of infrastructure will be very useful in years to come (especially when Germany connects to it properly).

But you're right about the policy. In my opinion the government should cater to the needs of the people, not the other way around. It's also funny to travel on an older motorway, where they still designed them with future expansion in mind. I rode on the A58 between Goes and Bergen op Zoom a couple of days ago. Widening that road would be very inexpensive, thanks to the planning of that time. Of course, widening that road isn't necessary, but there's always the option.
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 02:21 PM   #8706
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Quote:
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I'm very happy now that there is a Betuwelijn though, that piece of infrastructure will be very useful in years to come (especially when Germany connects to it properly).
It could have been much more useful if the Germans didn't continuously delay their part. I've read it won't be ready until 2027, 20 years after the Betuwe Route opened...

Interestingly, the share of trucking compared to rail freight did not change much, in fact truck traffic on A15 actually increased since 2007, despite the economic recession. Betuwe Route is useful in getting a shift from other railways, but not really from road to rail.
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 02:22 PM   #8707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog View Post

The first example annoys me as much as anything, how can you put birds and farmland above people, absolute waste of money and the people responsible should be locked up... Criminals wasting tax-payers money on protecting a rural area above people areas, morons...

Seconds example, the Betuweroute, also overkill, they don't seem too worried about''spoiling the view'' when placing a bunch of ugly windmills, so why for placing a nice bridge ?
If everybody were to think the way you do, then I'm glad I've moved out of Holland.
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 02:26 PM   #8708
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If everybody were to think the way you do, then I'm glad I've moved out of Holland.
If you honestly think a tunnel is needed here:
https://maps.google.nl/?ll=52.112725...66047&t=k&z=15
But not here:
https://maps.google.nl/?ll=51.992703...66047&t=k&z=15

Then I'm glad someone like you moved out.

Ruin thousands of lives to protect some ****ing birds and cows...
Not to mention the HSL has een a flop so far, a complete waste of money in the first place.


The whole traffic policy is about political correctness...

It's okay to let trains blast by at 250 km/h near peoples homes in terms of noise polution ( and build an expensive tunnel in the middle of nowhere to protect Cow and Bird land against the noise), but it's wrong to allow 130 km/h for cars on a 2x5 lane runway in the middle of bloody nowhere ?

Last edited by snowdog; December 23rd, 2012 at 02:33 PM.
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 02:33 PM   #8709
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Farming is a form of industry as well, badly needed. So is wildlife, especially in a built up country like NL, with the worst postwar architecture in the world. But you can choke in your tunnels and jump of bridges for all I care. I've got my mountains, and your tunnel (!) visions with your mindless rants about people with different opinions who need to be locked up are luckily a thing of the past for most people outside your neighbourhood.

Basically, you're an *******.
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 02:37 PM   #8710
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For the money of that tunnel compared to the tiny patch of farmland it saved we could've imported food until the next time the Maya calender ends.
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 02:38 PM   #8711
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Quote:
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Farming is a form of industry as well, badly needed. So is wildlife, especially in a built up country like NL, with the worst postwar architecture in the world. But you can choke in your tunnels and jump of bridges for all I care. I've got my mountains, and your tunnel (!) visions with your mindless rants about people with different opinions who need to be locked up are luckily a thing of the past for most people outside your neighbourhood.

Basically, you're an *******.
So building a rail in a field will ruin the farming industry ? My arse.
Wildlife ? We are talking about Farm land, not wildlife.

Nothing different opinions, criminals and corrupt people throwing money we don't have at rubbish... Just so they look like the best boy in class.

Thnaks for the personal attack, but the real *******s are the ones throwing millions at bull**** that will never pay itself back and is completely unnecessary. Political correctness is not a good reason to do anything...
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 02:47 PM   #8712
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You live in a country with the best infrastructure, all aspects connected and financially secure, and you moan about corruption, criminals and money. If we didn't know any better we'd think you are talking about some obscure country in Africa.
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 02:54 PM   #8713
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You live in a country with the best infrastructure, all aspects connected and financially secure, and you moan about corruption, criminals and money. If we didn't know any better we'd think you are talking about some obscure country in Africa.
Way to avoid the questions.

I live in a country with a budget deficit, extremely congested ( best infrastructure my ass), extreme real estate prices and overcrowded, where politicians throw money we don't have at prestige projects to gain some fame for their political correctness on in their own pockets...

No normal country would build a 940 million 7km tunnel to protect this:



When there is a high speed rail blasting through an area where 35.000 people live.
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 03:31 PM   #8714
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Here we go again..... Please, can we make a SnowDog-Topic instead of repeating every discussion over and over again?
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 03:41 PM   #8715
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^ Indeed. And snowdog, maybe read something about the history of dutch landscaping. The tunnel is not only made because of the existing of wildlife.
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 10:51 PM   #8716
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To be honest, it is not the infrastructure that spoils the Netherlands, it is just that there is a lot of not particularly appealing post-war architecture. The style of Dutch post-war architecture is almost identical to that in the UK, just on a far bigger scale. In the UK, you could ask the question what an infrastructure project is, because we are so archaic and backward, and some people have the belief that if you build a motorway in one place that it will ruin an area of 1000 square kilometres around it.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 12:01 AM   #8717
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Quote:
Originally Posted by da_scotty View Post
Here we go again..... Please, can we make a SnowDog-Topic instead of repeating every discussion over and over again?
Quote:
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^ Indeed. And snowdog, maybe read something about the history of dutch landscaping. The tunnel is not only made because of the existing of wildlife.
Wel, it's good that snowdog just tells the truth here. Whether you vinman and da_scotty politically like it or not. Too much money has been thrown in the ditches here, just because of short-sighted left-wing political ambitions of people who think they are the only ones which think in a correct way...
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Old December 24th, 2012, 12:15 AM   #8718
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Sure, there is some truth, but there are limits.

The left has some points, the right as well.
Only SnowDog is starting a rant everytime a road is downgraded, even when new roads are build and the old one is closed, every time the word "enviroment" is used or that a road is not build.

This is not the way to conversate. It's a onesided opinion with no room for discussion. That's why it's rather annoying.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 01:44 AM   #8719
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To be honest, it is not the infrastructure that spoils the Netherlands, it is just that there is a lot of not particularly appealing post-war architecture. The style of Dutch post-war architecture is almost identical to that in the UK, just on a far bigger scale. In the UK, you could ask the question what an infrastructure project is, because we are so archaic and backward, and some people have the belief that if you build a motorway in one place that it will ruin an area of 1000 square kilometres around it.
Is it really on a much bigger scale? I think that Dutch planning (postwar to present) works a lot better than ours has on the whole, much of the architecture too, though there was a lot of senseless destruction and it's nowhere near as unspoiled a country as some have been suggesting in the UK skybar.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 01:45 AM   #8720
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For the record: when we talk about "unappealing post-war architecture", that refers to architecture from the '50s, '60s, '70s and '80s? Cause a lot of our modern stuff (1990s-present) I actually do like.
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