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Old December 24th, 2012, 04:19 AM   #8721
julesstoop
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So the left has to take the blame for the successful lobby of wealthy farmers and ex-urbanites? Now this is interesting.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 10:43 AM   #8722
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Wel, it's good that snowdog just tells the truth here.
Your truth and his truth, not *the* truth... Furthermore, an other opinion is not the problem, but the way it is brought definetily is, IMHO.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 11:18 AM   #8723
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Is it really on a much bigger scale? I think that Dutch planning (postwar to present) works a lot better than ours has on the whole, much of the architecture too, though there was a lot of senseless destruction and it's nowhere near as unspoiled a country as some have been suggesting in the UK skybar.
Dutch post-war architecture is on a bigger scale in terms of quantity, because just like infrastructure, housing development is held back by planning big time in the UK.

The Dutch have some fantastic transport infrastructure, and some fantastic ideas about transport. They also have some ridiculous ideas. In the UK we have looked to the Dutch for inspiration quite a bit over the years, and some aspects we have copied have been good Dutch ideas and others have been ideas that would have better remained the other side of the channel.

It is madness that the Dutch would tunnel through open countryside when they would be less likely to tunnel close to a population centre. What I would say though is that the Dutch appear to be really flash with cash when it comes to transport, and it's almost as if no expense is spared. I say no expense spared, but transport projects in the Netherlands cost a fraction of what they do in the UK, as a large proportion of our money is lost on bureaucracy. The Dutch get infrastructure built far more efficiently, and they get far more for their money.

Congestion is a big problem in the Netherlands, but it is no surprise given population density. Having said that, Britain is very congested, because our motorway network is skeletal and inadequate, and off the motorway our roads resemble eastern Europe in the way that they are generally very low quality. The Dutch have it good. The UK is a prettier place to live, but that's because most of the UK isn't flat and boring.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 11:42 AM   #8724
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As I recall England's population density is roughly similar to that of the Netherlands. Not to mention that we haven't got any settlement along the lines of London that we must try to keep mobile.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 02:08 PM   #8725
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The 1990s policy (already starting in the late 1970s) was that transportation policy should be done in a way so that everything should shift to public transport. Several megaprojects were funded during this time, like the high-speed rail, Betuwe freight railway and some local rail transport.

However, no such shift was ever recorded, in fact the car gained a larger share in the modal split during the 1990s. All this money did not reach its goal of getting people from cars into public transport and reducing car traffic or even the share of road traffic. Public transport boomed in the 1990s though, especially after they introduced unlimited free travel for students, which currently account for about 35 - 40% of all public transport mileage.

It wasn't until the early to mid-2000s that some realism got back into politics, especially with traffic congestion increasing by 10% annually for two decades in a row. However, several road projects were designed in the 1990s but are only currently executed, which means some still have a substandard design such as A4 at the southern side of Leiden with its weird local-express setup and the lack of capacity on the A4 Delft - Schiedam link.

The 1990s were not completely devoid of road projects though. Though large-scale capacity expansion did not occur (mostly shoulder running), they for instance did replace several large bridges in A2.
I think there are several societal forces working in different directions here. Public transport boomed and so did driving because the wealthy societies in the Western Europe are becoming more and more mobile. Almost all adults are either studying or working and people these days are rarely working in the same place for decades therefore it's more difficult to live close to work. Population is still growing and housing very close to core cities is not affordable to many people thus requiring longer commutes. In addition improvements in infrastructure, both roads and public transport, attract extra traffic by themselves.

It's all to the good mostly. Good infrastructure, efficient financing and good education is that keeps us competitive with much cheaper reagions.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 03:41 PM   #8726
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsteve View Post
Dutch post-war architecture is on a bigger scale in terms of quantity, because just like infrastructure, housing development is held back by planning big time in the UK.

The Dutch have some fantastic transport infrastructure, and some fantastic ideas about transport. They also have some ridiculous ideas. In the UK we have looked to the Dutch for inspiration quite a bit over the years, and some aspects we have copied have been good Dutch ideas and others have been ideas that would have better remained the other side of the channel.

It is madness that the Dutch would tunnel through open countryside when they would be less likely to tunnel close to a population centre. What I would say though is that the Dutch appear to be really flash with cash when it comes to transport, and it's almost as if no expense is spared. I say no expense spared, but transport projects in the Netherlands cost a fraction of what they do in the UK, as a large proportion of our money is lost on bureaucracy. The Dutch get infrastructure built far more efficiently, and they get far more for their money.

Congestion is a big problem in the Netherlands, but it is no surprise given population density. Having said that, Britain is very congested, because our motorway network is skeletal and inadequate, and off the motorway our roads resemble eastern Europe in the way that they are generally very low quality. The Dutch have it good. The UK is a prettier place to live, but that's because most of the UK isn't flat and boring.
When you consider that the HSL tunnels, the cutting/tunnel for the new A4 section etc run through protected landscapes, surrounded by densely populated urban areas and partly given to recreation, I think that they make sense. Especially with the motorways, it's not just the visual impact but the enormous levels of noise that they produce that can significantly degrade such places. And yet, on the whole there is greater countryside access (especially for walking) in the UK.

I agree that projects are of a high quality but the cuts are having an impact on transport. A particularly strange decision is the disproportionate cuts to public transport in the largest cities compared with everywhere else.

I don't think that flat necessarily means boring either and it's surely a matter of taste. I find beauty in the flat Dutch landscapes and they differ significantly from our flat areas like the Fens, which are generally a lot harsher. The Netherlands does have a variety of landscapes, not just flat farmland (although there's enough variety amongst that!), but the UK does have a greater variety and some more immediately awe-inspiring ones.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 04:09 PM   #8727
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Especially with the motorways, it's not just the visual impact but the enormous levels of noise that they produce that can significantly degrade such places.
Nearly the entire Dutch motorway network is paved with porous asphalt. As a result, it has by far the most quiet motorway traffic in the world. There are many locations where traffic is not loud even close to the motorway. It's worth experiencing how quiet 12 lanes of traffic are at Abcoude.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 04:16 PM   #8728
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I agree that projects are of a high quality but the cuts are having an impact on transport. A particularly strange decision is the disproportionate cuts to public transport in the largest cities compared with everywhere else.
Most of the cuts in transportation invovled recuding bus services. I would say 70% of the cuts were made on bus routes. And that is because the Dutch government was clever enough to realize cutting capital projects while ignoring those that require ongoing operational subsidization is a bit of a shortsighted approach.

The road system and national rail can pay for their ongoing costs with fees/tax surcharges collected directly upon their users. However, buses are huge money losers. And, frankly, there was and still is an excessive bus network in Den Haag, Rotterdam and Amsterdam. Rotterdam did already cut a lot of bus mileage, many of it duplicating the very good (for the city cize) tram and subway network. Amsterdam could well cut half of its bus mileage and consolidate a couple of its tram lines and still have the save coverage (only requiring more transfers).
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Old December 24th, 2012, 05:34 PM   #8729
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N251 Aardenburg Bypass

Aardenburg is a small town in Zeeland province, not far from the border with Belgium. They finally constructed a bypass around this town, it opened a few days ago.

The new road starts around 1:00


The former N251 was completely unacceptable for a primary provincial road.

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Old December 24th, 2012, 05:59 PM   #8730
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Is the continous double white median line really needed?
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Old December 24th, 2012, 06:11 PM   #8731
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It creates a bit more distance between the lanes.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 06:15 PM   #8732
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It doesn't have to be continuous to create that extra distance.

Thank Duurzaam Veilig for the overtaking ban...
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Old December 24th, 2012, 06:25 PM   #8733
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Nearly the entire Dutch motorway network is paved with porous asphalt. As a result, it has by far the most quiet motorway traffic in the world. There are many locations where traffic is not loud even close to the motorway. It's worth experiencing how quiet 12 lanes of traffic are at Abcoude.
I'd love to, perhaps you know of a youtube clip or something that could demonstrate it in the meantime? Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure that you would notice a huge difference between having all that traffic above ground and under it.

Suburbanist. There is a balance to be struck between capital projects and ongoing subsidisation, but I think your post is motivated more by your ideological bent than anything else. Cut too much of what is already there and you degrade its usefulness to people more than new stuff increases it. There is very little duplication between modes in the Netherlands as it is and a cursory glance at the cuts that have taken place will confirm that the removed buses, as a rule, provided links that otherwise don't exist. Yes, I'm sure you could cut more and require massive detours via city centres, more interchanges adding about 5 mins to the journey each time etc, but as I'm sure you know this would also reduce the usefulness of the network a lot further. The quieter services feed passengers into the major ones. Incidentally, a lot of tram routes have been cut too especially in Rotterdam, and more seem to be on the horizon.

I don't advocate huge cuts to rural public transport either, but nonetheless I find it strange that the biggest cuts have been reserved for the largest cities, which presumably have the greatest potential for public transport use.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 07:11 PM   #8734
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It doesn't have to be continuous to create that extra distance.

Thank Duurzaam Veilig for the overtaking ban...
Are you and snowdog related?
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Old December 24th, 2012, 07:12 PM   #8735
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AFAIK, they didn't reduce significantly the total number or tram trackage in Rotterdam, they just truncated some routes and reduced frequency.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 07:28 PM   #8736
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Are you and snowdog related?
Not that I know of. You don't have to be related to share (part of) an opinion.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 08:14 PM   #8737
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A7 Afsluitdijk

A nice photo from the Afsluitdijk (enclosure dam) between Noord-Holland and Friesland, before it's been widened to a motorway.

image hosted on flickr

Netherlands - Enclosing Dyke by roger4336, on Flickr

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Afsluitdijk by vk2gwk - Henk T, on Flickr
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Old December 24th, 2012, 08:15 PM   #8738
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Not that I know of. You don't have to be related to share (part of) an opinion.
It's that duurzaam veilig crap...
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Old December 24th, 2012, 09:18 PM   #8739
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It's that duurzaam veilig crap...
Duurzaam veilig is crap to our roads. It is completely disrecpectful to the fortune car owners pay in tax. Not only will we use your money to destroy roads, we will destroy them in such a way that they destroy your car and slow you down!


Perfectly good roads ruined with speed bumps, chicanes, made smaller, and downgraded. Not only is it unnecessary, it is money better spent elsewhere!

I don't see the same rubbish abroad, in Poland many provincial roads pass through villages, for example in Garwolin ages ago, the main road used to pass through town. They built a road around it, now everyone uses that road, not because they ruined the original one, that one's still there, but because the new road is a better and faster alternative...

Nobody in their right mind thought ''hey, lets place a lot of speedbumps and chicanes'', or downgrading the road in any other way in Garwolin...
You don't need a step back to justify a step forward elsewhere...

Like the couple of 2x2 road in NL downgraded to 1x2, do you not think car drivers would appreciate a nice 2x2 road to continue driving on, despite the alternative ?
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Old December 24th, 2012, 10:40 PM   #8740
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Dutch going the Italian way with signaling...

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Leeuwarden by eurograd, on Flickr
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