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Old January 6th, 2013, 09:17 PM   #8821
snowdog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piotr71 View Post
Aaargh, the traffic apes at Alexander.

I always visit AH ( live within 15 mins walking from it) when I wake up in Alexander, to get some food and groceries.

Half the time they are hired they weren't needed at all and traffic was calm, only on the busiest days I can imagine the point of them.

I walked up to them one day and told them to bugger off and to stop annoying traffic with their pointless job... Even when I'm walking I hate it when they unnecessarily hamper traffic. Not only that ,but they directed everyone into payed-for parking garages, despite free parking being available within 2 minutes driving. How stupid can you be as a city ''welcome to our shopping center, park here and pay a fortune'' despite free parking being available 3-4 mins walking in pretty much any direction around Alexander ( in fact, in that picture free parking is already available if you cross under the mall, cross the metro rails ( at the next traffic lights in pic), turn left on the first, and turn left again, beside the Metro rails there's a free parking lot...).

Last edited by snowdog; January 6th, 2013 at 09:23 PM.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 09:46 PM   #8822
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Originally Posted by Road_UK

Well, I can imagine that riding a bike in any Italian city is a suicide mission.
Not if you live in a small town like where I grow up. Even if illegal, it's socially acceptable to cycle on the sidewalk along a main road and to cross on zebra crossing.
In many towns in Northern Italy they built many cycle lanes, but rarely outside built-up areas (except touristic areas like Trentino) so if you have to cycle betweem two towns you have to take a dangerous roas, unless there are parallel small country roads.
Even with a wider network, almost no one but tourists and atleths would cycle long (>5km oneway) distances, since there is not enough cycling culture.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 09:54 PM   #8823
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Italy is better without a cycling culture (other than an athletic cycling culture ). Many roads on built-up cities don't even have sidewalks, and there is excessive density of buildings cramping up 8/10 modern cities.

There is not enough space for bikes.

This being said, I think they should build some independent cycling facilities (paths) on the countryside, where motorized traffic doesn't go. That could be helpful.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 10:26 PM   #8824
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Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
No, nanny state should be outlawed... It's none of your, or the governments business to meddle with what is safe or not for adults, even if it was highly unsafe, then it's their own risk.

That I agree with though. I'd never carry my kid on a bike until he/she learns to cycle... Let alone a bike trailer for my baby , dangerous as hell. imo. I'll just walk the kid to school...
But if others want to do it, then let them.
I can't imagine that you have found anyone to have kids with.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 10:30 PM   #8825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist
Italy is better without a cycling culture (other than an athletic cycling culture ). Many roads on built-up cities don't even have sidewalks, and there is excessive density of buildings cramping up 8/10 modern cities.

There is not enough space for bikes.

This being said, I think they should build some independent cycling facilities (paths) on the countryside, where motorized traffic doesn't go. That could be helpful.
And also along major roads in built-up areas (were there's space) and connecting suburbs, shopping malls and industrial areas to their city centres. They're more useful for the general population rather than tourist-oriented cycle lanes in the middle of nowhere.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 11:23 PM   #8826
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It would be possible to have cycling culture, if the infrastructure would be safe and friendly enough. To be honest, recreational cycling routes are nice, but I would like to see more infrastructure inside the cities. And the side cycling lane is not really what I have in mind. In most cases, unless the cycling path is hard divided I consider it a joke. To be honest most of the cycling path designs that had been made in the CZ in the last 10 years inside the cities are just not comparable to the standard Dutch cycling infrastructure, and won't be ever used on wider scale. They just fail on all accounts and that makes them wasting money. Especially in Prague. And it has nothing to do with the hilly terrain or narrow streets. There would be demand for cycling in Prague, but the infrastructure just doesn't allow it, and the new cycling infrastructure is either completely set aside outside of the current roads (safe, but not really usefull) or just a side lane painted red with cycling markings (which is highly unsafe and unatractive).

The problem here, is that you need a momentum to have widespread support for the infrastructure but in order to have that momentum you need the cyclists first, and they won't be on the streets unless they have infrastructure. This circle is hard to break. Although I know that there is high barrier for many people (in Prague) to use bycicle everyday in the city center because of the safety concerns. The sad thing is that new non recreational cycling infrastructure as it is done now doesn't offer any real safety improvements. It would be better to put the money elswhere or do it really thorough, otherwise it is just a waste.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 11:40 PM   #8827
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel
It would be possible to have cycling culture, if the infrastructure would be safe and friendly enough. To be honest, recreational cycling routes are nice, but I would like to see more infrastructure inside the cities. And the side cycling lane is not really what I have in mind. In most cases, unless the cycling path is hard divided I consider it a joke. To be honest most of the cycling path designs that had been made in the CZ in the last 10 years inside the cities are just not comparable to the standard Dutch cycling infrastructure, and won't be ever used on wider scale. They just fail on all accounts and that makes them wasting money. Especially in Prague. And it has nothing to do with the hilly terrain or narrow streets. There would be demand for cycling in Prague, but the infrastructure just doesn't allow it, and the new cycling infrastructure is either completely set aside outside of the current roads (safe, but not really usefull) or just a side lane painted red with cycling markings (which is highly unsafe and unatractive).

The problem here, is that you need a momentum to have widespread support for the infrastructure but in order to have that momentum you need the cyclists first, and they won't be on the streets unless they have infrastructure. This circle is hard to break. Although I know that there is high barrier for many people (in Prague) to use bycicle everyday in the city center because of the safety concerns. The sad thing is that new non recreational cycling infrastructure as it is done now doesn't offer any real safety improvements. It would be better to put the money elswhere or do it really thorough, otherwise it is just a waste.
The cycle lane should be segregated from the carriaggeway with a concrete curb, that is much safer than a painted line and prevents illegal parking.

Cycling culture isn't only related to infrastructures. Here a lot of people, mostly women, refuse to go to work by bycicles even if it's only 1km from home and there is a cycleway (or a de-facto cycleway such a wide sidewalk or paved shoulder). In winter: too cold, I may get ill. In summer: too hot, it's tiring and I'll swear. Year round: I may ruin my hairdressing and my fancy clothings. To go shopping: no way I carry two bags on my bike.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 12:14 AM   #8828
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
In many towns in Northern Italy they built many cycle lanes, but rarely outside built-up areas (except touristic areas like Trentino) so if you have to cycle betweem two towns you have to take a dangerous roas, unless there are parallel small country roads.
I'd say it's the other way round. Cycle paths inside cities are ridiculous, often a 100 m stretch that goes from and to nowhere. Most of the times they can't be used for useful trips, like from suburbs to city centres.

My direct experience is with Bologna, a Northern city I lived in for 12 years. Radial streets have no cycle paths because they're too narrow, and sidewalks can't be used because of stairs and sudden bumps. They can draw a line and put a sign but this will never be a cycle path:

http://goo.gl/maps/dwIf4

On the other hand the "Viali", 3-laned ring around the city centre, have a cycle path only here:

http://goo.gl/maps/DanpX

Between carriageways, and only between two of the old town's gates, Porta San Vitale and Porta Maggiore. Useless, and dangerous at the junctions.


But cycle paths do exist in Italy: only in tourist areas. Along Adige valley, or Val Brembana, or Val Pusteria/Pustertal, often replacing old railways. That is to say, useful for tourists but useless to everyone else.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 12:24 AM   #8829
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Actually its not that bad in Italy. A friend of mine cycled without major problems in Milan, nearly every day.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 12:32 AM   #8830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza

I'd say it's the other way round. Cycle paths inside cities are ridiculous, often a 100 m stretch that goes from and to nowhere. Most of the times they can't be used for useful trips, like from suburbs to city centres.

My direct experience is with Bologna, a Northern city I lived in for 12 years. Radial streets have no cycle paths because they're too narrow, and sidewalks can't be used because of stairs and sudden bumps. They can draw a line and put a sign but this will never be a cycle path:
I was saying that, while many urban roads (or better suburban roads, in newer areas) have cycle paths, you rarely find a cyclelane going from town A to town B even if they're few km apart. Often a dangerous state road is the only possibility.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 12:37 AM   #8831
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Old Italian cities would be difficult to adapt to safe cycling...

By the way nothing wrong with building more recreational (mostly) cycling lines outside cities. They provide a cheap wayto keep fit and see the surrounding countryside at the same time - I use them quite a bit here in Switzerland when the weather allows. Vast majority of people using them are not some far away tourists, but people living within 20-30 km.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 01:04 AM   #8832
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns
Old Italian cities would be difficult to adapt to safe cycling...

By the way nothing wrong with building more recreational (mostly) cycling lines outside cities. They provide a cheap wayto keep fit and see the surrounding countryside at the same time - I use them quite a bit here in Switzerland when the weather allows. Vast majority of people using them are not some far away tourists, but people living within 20-30 km.
In many Italian historic cities they could build cycle lanes by removing rows of roadside parking space. But parking spaces are already very scarce in historical centers and removing the few that exist would kill the urban life and force many existing businesses to close or relocate in a car-friendlier suburb and it would destroy street life further more. What I said is true especially for the less touristic towns.
Park+ride options (or park+rent a bike) may work for touristic places, where the beauty of the historical centre (or natural attractions, such in seaside or mountain towns) cannot be replaced by a huge shopping mall built brand new in what used to be countryside, with a multi-store parking lot and just off a major highway interchange. For towns with no touristic interest (or better, with small touristic interest, that deserve a short visit if you are in the area, isn't easy to find an European medium-size city completely unactractive for tourists), excessive anti-car measures can kill urban life. Maybe you don't allow parking on the main square, but you allow parking in most central streets. It may look sad, but not many people are going to walk 30 minutes or wait for a bus just to buy a pair of shoes. They rather drive to the mall.
I'm not anti-shopping centres but city centres should be lively and vibrant, with people walking around and traditional businesses running. Not deserted dormitories. More people around means also more social control and more safety. Illegal and anti-social behaviours like thief, violence and vandalism are more likely to happen when there's nobody around. And more people feel unsafe, less people go around making the area even more deserted.
When there's room to allow pedestrian-cycle ways without create too much obstruction (most areas outside old town, especially those developed after WWII), they must be build. In historical centres low speed limits for motorized traffic (such 20 or 30) may help pedestrians a cyclists to share the road with motorists more safely.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

Last edited by italystf; January 7th, 2013 at 01:14 AM.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 01:26 AM   #8833
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I'm not anti-shopping centres but city centres should be lively and vibrant, with people walking around and traditional businesses running. Not deserted dormitories. More people around means also more social control and more safety. Illegal and anti-social behaviours like thief, violence and vandalism are more likely to happen when there's nobody around. And more people feel unsafe, less people go around making the area even more deserted.
When there's room to allow pedestrian-cycle ways without create too much obstruction (most areas outside old town, especially those developed after WWII), they must be build. In historical centres low speed limits for motorized traffic (such 20 or 30) may help pedestrians a cyclists to share the road with motorists more safely.
I agree. Cycling is good, but not at the cost of driving residents/businesses away. Cities are mean't to be alive!

Italian cities, the ones I've been to anyway, aren't exactly deserted even where parking is difficult. Perugia was the first Italian city I visited - some of the "parking tricks" in the old town I'd never attempt
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Old January 7th, 2013, 11:42 AM   #8834
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I walked up to them one day and told them to bugger off and to stop annoying traffic with their pointless job...
How nice of you. They're just doing what they were hired to do, probably because in this awful economic climate they couldn't find any other job. Do you really think they need you to insult them like that? If their presence bugs you so much, you should get in touch with the city. Don't yell at them, that achieves nothing.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 06:52 PM   #8835
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How nice of you. They're just doing what they were hired to do, probably because in this awful economic climate they couldn't find any other job. Do you really think they need you to insult them like that? If their presence bugs you so much, you should get in touch with the city. Don't yell at them, that achieves nothing.
Not being able to find another job is nonsense, there are enough jobs around Rotterdam.
I hardly insulted them or yelled at them, I simply told them, ''can't you go away, what you're doing is pointless''. No yelling, simply said to their face as we walked by.

I probably will if they keep hiring them, my main problem with them is closing left turns and directing everyone into the paid parking garages. It's almost as if they're hired for the tourists.

You are correct it was a bit pointless, but I can't help to feel annoyed by traffic hampering things, even if they aren't affecting me.

Last edited by snowdog; January 7th, 2013 at 07:10 PM.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 07:13 PM   #8836
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Not being able to find another job is nonsense, there are enough jobs around Rotterdam.
I hardly insulted them or yelled at them, I simply told them, ''can't you go away, what you're doing is pointless''. No yelling, simply said to their face as we walked by.

I probably will if they keep hiring them, my main problem with them is closing left turns and directing everyone into the paid parking garages. It's almost as if they're hired for the tourists.

You are correct it was a bit pointless, but I can't help to feel annoyed by traffic hampering things, even if they aren't affecting me.
If they are directing people into the paid parking while there is free parking elswhere, bet on it, that thats the reason why they are hired. Better contact your local authorites or the media though if you dont like it.
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Old January 9th, 2013, 12:31 PM   #8837
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I walked up to them one day and told them to bugger off and to stop annoying traffic with their pointless job...
Personnally I hate such disrespectful actions. You achieve nothing by doing this and only create extra tensions. They are just doing their job. If you really think it's a nuisance then complain at the city.

Please respect each other.
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Old January 9th, 2013, 01:38 PM   #8838
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A8 Amsterdam - Zaandam

This motorway is currently being widened to 2x4 lanes.

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Old January 9th, 2013, 04:15 PM   #8839
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Very good
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Old January 9th, 2013, 04:31 PM   #8840
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Sound barriers, sigh.
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